Liverpool South Parkway - Chester fares

[Polarbear]

Looking at BR Fares, the cheapest single available is £6.10. This is for an Anytime Day Single - Route Runcorn. I've tried booking through London North Western but that only offers me a £7.80 single on routes via Crewe, and the lower fare for journeys on the TWF service that runs direct from Runcorn to Chester. However, neither ticket appears to be operator restricted?

Am I missing something, or is the lower fare also available via Crewe as BR fares doesn't indicate any restrictions & a check of the route planner shows that South Parkway is in the Hunts Cross Group, Chester is a routing point, and covered by maps CH, JG and a combination of JO & CV.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think Crewe is ordinarily a Permitted Route, so only a ticket routed Crewe would be Permitted by virtue of being able to consider Permitted Routes from Liverpool SP to Crewe and then Permitted Routes from Crewe to Chester.

Hunts Cross Group to Chester is CH or CV+JO or JG (you can't use all four, only each listed combination alone).

So far as I can see none of those offer via Crewe. This isn't surprising as via Crewe wouldn't have been considered Reasonable in BR days.

 

[Polarbear]

I don't think Crewe is ordinarily a Permitted Route, so only a ticket routed Crewe would be Permitted by virtue of being able to consider Permitted Routes from Liverpool SP to Crewe and then Permitted Routes from Crewe to Chester.

Hunts Cross Group to Chester is CH or CV+JO or JG (you can't use all four, only each listed combination alone).

So far as I can see none of those offer via Crewe. This isn't surprising as via Crewe wouldn't have been considered Reasonable in BR days.

Thanks - but there are no fares that are "Route Crewe". There are three routings which are, Birkenhead, Warrington & Runcorn. Both the £7.80 single and £6.10 single fares are both routed via Runcorn.

Also, would Crewe not have been a permitted route prior to re-opening the Halton Chord, as otherwise, a "Route Runcorn" ticket would quickly run into issues?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £7.80 fare is routed Birkenhead, so if the LNR site is offering it via their services to Crewe and then TfW from there to Chester then it should not be doing so.

There is a £12.10 Any Permitted (route dot) ticket but this seems a bit pointless.

Via Warrington probably goes back to BR days when there used to be a direct hourly Liverpool-Chester via Earlestown and Warrington DMU.

 

[Watershed]

Looking at BR Fares, the cheapest single available is £6.10. This is for an Anytime Day Single - Route Runcorn. I've tried booking through London North Western but that only offers me a £7.80 single on routes via Crewe, and the lower fare for journeys on the TWF service that runs direct from Runcorn to Chester. However, neither ticket appears to be operator restricted?

Am I missing something, or is the lower fare also available via Crewe as BR fares doesn't indicate any restrictions & a check of the route planner shows that South Parkway is in the Hunts Cross Group, Chester is a routing point, and covered by maps CH, JG and a combination of JO & CV.

I'm not sure where you are seeing a £7.80 for routes via Crewe. By default it's showing me £7.80 for routes via Birkenhead (as it should), and £6.10 for routes via Runcorn.

The £6.10 fare via Runcorn is indeed valid via Crewe, as it happens. But in most cases it is faster to take the direct TfW service via the Halton Chord, or to change at Lime Street and take Merseyrail via Birkenhead.

Thanks - but there are no fares that are "Route Crewe". There are three routings which are, Birkenhead, Warrington & Runcorn. Both the £7.80 single and £6.10 single fares are both routed via Runcorn.

Also, would Crewe not have been a permitted route prior to re-opening the Halton Chord, as otherwise, a "Route Runcorn" ticket would quickly run into issues?

The via Runcorn ticket didn't exist until the TfW service started running. In addition to route Birkenhead, Warrington and Runcorn there is also a route "dot" (i.e. Any Permitted) fare.

 

[realemil]

If you're willing to take a detour, a longer journey time, and be restricted to an operator, Merseyrail has a 'Day Saver' ticket for £5.50 (£2.75 if you're 18 and under - yes if you are 18, it includes you). https://www.merseyrail.org/tickets-passes/daily-travel/day-saver.aspx

I've tried booking through London North Western but that only offers me a £7.80 single on routes via Crewe

Are you sure it includes travel via Crewe? I checked this route myself and it seems to be Mersey + Northern. You do the following:

1. Chester - Liverpool Lime
2. Liverpool Lime - Liverpool South Parkway

the lower fare for journeys on the TWF service that runs direct from Runcorn to Chester

Yes, that's correct as the faster journey has fewer trains per hour & you're more restricted.

The £6.10 fare via Runcorn is indeed valid via Crewe, as it happens

Are you sure?

I checked NRE and it displays a higher fare for services via Crewe (£24 & £32!), which would imply it is not valid via Crewe. It seems a bit odd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The £6.10 fare via Runcorn is indeed valid via Crewe, as it happens.

It doesn't look it to me. What reading of the maps leads you to think it is?

Edit: is this another case like Bletchley-Warwick where some planners will give it as valid by using Permitted Routes South Parkway-Runcorn then Runcorn-Chester, but the LNR one seemingly not?

 

[realemil]

It doesn't look it to me. What reading of the maps leads you to think it is?

Edit: is this another case like Bletchley-Warwick where some planners will give it as valid by using Permitted Routes South Parkway-Runcorn then Runcorn-Chester, but the LNR one seemingly not?

It doesn't seem to be valid at all via that route. Checking all of the maps:

Hunts Cross Group includes South Parkway
Chester - Hunts Cross Group has maps: CH, JG, JO+CV

Only CH is valid to Crewe, but only to Crewe and not anywhere further north - you need to go via Hooton. (Check on http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps)

No planners give South Parkway - Runcorn, Runcorn - Chester as a valid route, they only spit out TFW Chester - South Parkway which is not via Crewe, or the merseyrail + northern combo.

The occasional ticket spat out is the £11.90 fare via Warrington. Nothing is via Crewe.

 

[Polarbear]

Thanks all. I’ve re-checked on the London Northwestern website, and that £7.80 fare is routed through Birkenhead. You have to drill down to see the station changes though, as it’s far from clear on the mixing desk.

 

[Watershed]

It doesn't look it to me. What reading of the maps leads you to think it is?

Edit: is this another case like Bletchley-Warwick where some planners will give it as valid by using Permitted Routes South Parkway-Runcorn then Runcorn-Chester, but the LNR one seemingly not?

Exactly. WMT's journey planner was more than happy to offer the route via Crewe when I looked.

It doesn't seem to be valid at all via that route. Checking all of the maps:

Hunts Cross Group includes South Parkway
Chester - Hunts Cross Group has maps: CH, JG, JO+CV

Only CH is valid to Crewe, but only to Crewe and not anywhere further north - you need to go via Hooton. (Check on http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps)

No planners give South Parkway - Runcorn, Runcorn - Chester as a valid route, they only spit out TFW Chester - South Parkway which is not via Crewe, or the merseyrail + northern combo.

The occasional ticket spat out is the £11.90 fare via Warrington. Nothing is via Crewe.

Simply enter Crewe as a via point, and any accredited journey planner should offer that on the "via Runcorn" fare. You're relying on the split route check - have a look at where Runcorn to Chester is valid via.

Thanks all. I’ve re-checked on the London Northwestern website, and that £7.80 fare is routed through Birkenhead. You have to drill down to see the station changes though, as it’s far from clear on the mixing desk.

WMT don't use MixingDeck - they use the whitelabel Trainline site, same as all other Abellio TOCs.

It doesn't look it to me. What reading of the maps leads you to think it is?

Edit: is this another case like Bletchley-Warwick where some planners will give it as valid by using Permitted Routes South Parkway-Runcorn then Runcorn-Chester, but the LNR one seemingly not?

Exactly. WMT's journey planner was more than happy to offer the route via Crewe when I looked.

It doesn't seem to be valid at all via that route. Checking all of the maps:

Hunts Cross Group includes South Parkway
Chester - Hunts Cross Group has maps: CH, JG, JO+CV

Only CH is valid to Crewe, but only to Crewe and not anywhere further north - you need to go via Hooton. (Check on http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps)

No planners give South Parkway - Runcorn, Runcorn - Chester as a valid route, they only spit out TFW Chester - South Parkway which is not via Crewe, or the merseyrail + northern combo.

The occasional ticket spat out is the £11.90 fare via Warrington. Nothing is via Crewe.

Simply enter Crewe as a via point, and any accredited journey planner should offer that on the "via Runcorn" fare. You're relying on the split route check - have a look at where Runcorn to Chester is valid via.

Thanks all. I’ve re-checked on the London Northwestern website, and that £7.80 fare is routed through Birkenhead. You have to drill down to see the station changes though, as it’s far from clear on the mixing desk.

WMT don't use MixingDeck - they use the whitelabel Trainline site, same as all other Abellio TOCs.

 

[realemil]

Simply enter Crewe as a via point, and any accredited journey planner should offer that on the "via Runcorn" fare. You're relying on the split route check - have a look at where Runcorn to Chester is valid via.

I stand mistaken - decided to check WMT and LNR sites and you're correct.

Quite odd that this is the case. I wonder why

 

[Bletchleyite]

I stand mistaken - decided to check WMT and LNR sites and you're correct.

Quite odd that this is the case. I wonder why

This is very similar to the Bletchley-Warwick scenario in that it undercuts a fare for a shorter journey and so the validity is probably not intended, but it seems that planners don't apply "if there are no Permitted Routes through the route point then split it but if there aren't don't", but rather consider all three sets of routes anyway.

I therefore wouldn't try this without it being purchased against and sticking to an itinerary, with which it is unquestionably valid.

 

[realemil]

This is very similar to the Bletchley-Warwick scenario in that it undercuts a fare for a shorter journey and so the validity is probably not intended, but it seems that planners don't apply "if there are no Permitted Routes through the route point then split it but if there aren't don't", but rather consider all three sets of routes anyway.

I therefore wouldn't try this without it being purchased against and sticking to an itinerary, with which it is unquestionably valid.

If I'm ever down in the areas of Liverpool / Crewe again, I'll try this (and purchase the valid itinerary) and see how it goes! :]

 

[Polarbear]

For the record, my plan was to travel from Green Lane to Crewe, travelling out via Runcorn & back via Chester. I figured that a Saveaway would cover the outward Green Lane-Liverpool South Parkway & Chester-Green Lane legs, the single covering the other leg. It would undercut the walk up day return fare between Green Lane & Crewe.

 

[Merseysider]

It would undercut the walk up day return fare between Green Lane & Crewe.

I wouldn’t expect it to do so for very long, these things get ‘rectified’ pretty quickly once posted publicly. If travelling that way I would definitely do so with a saved/printed itinerary from eg National Rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not in the remotest bit reasonable (look at a map for how out of the way it goes) and wasn't accepted as reasonable in BR days, so this is clearly not valid on purpose. So definitely book an itinerary and stick to it.

 

[kieron]

There is a relevant easement in the system.

Customers travelling from Liverpool to Chester on fares priced (00247) VIA RUNCORN, may not travel via Crewe. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions

Where the text says "Liverpool", the data for the easement covers Liverpool Lime Street (LIV), Edge Hill (EDG), Mossley Hill (MSH), West Allerton (WSA) and Liverpool South Parkway (LPY). Not all of these have "via Runcorn" fares to/from Chester.

For now, you can use an itinerary from a web site which will give you one. There may be other options if you need to make the journey again in the future.

 

[Starmill]

It's not in the remotest bit reasonable (look at a map for how out of the way it goes)

It's sometimes quicker though. How far it is is irrelevant surely? They should set the price appropriately and offer a ticket for all quick journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's sometimes quicker though. How far it is is irrelevant surely? They should set the price appropriately and offer a ticket for all quick journeys.

When is it quicker? Surprises me. I'd agree there should be a fare for any route, but you can do it with a split.

99% of people will just use Merseyrail - not super quick but 4tph, simple and cheap.

 

[Starmill]

When is it quicker? Surprises me. I'd agree there should be a fare for any route, but you can do it with a split.

99% of people will just use Merseyrail - not super quick but 4tph, simple and cheap.

Whenever the direct service is withdrawn on a Sunday. i.e. fairly often in the past couple of years. Seems unlikely the proportion using Merseyrail would be so high as that given the cut to 3tph and the need to change trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whenever the direct service is withdrawn on a Sunday.

For engineering works? I would agree that alternative routes should be allowed in that specific case.

I.e. Fairly often in the past couple of years. Seems unlikely the proportion using Merseyrail would be so high as that given the cut to 3tph and the need to change trains.

If you're in Liverpool and going to Chester you use Merseyrail. The mainline is for going to London unless you live on it. That is how the culture is and long has been. Very similar to the way people only use buses for local trips when rail might be better in some places e.g. MK.

 

[Starmill]

For engineering works?

No? There were no trains at all through to Chester for months on end.

If you're in Liverpool and going to Chester you use Merseyrail. The mainline is for going to London unless you live on it. That is how the culture is and long has been. Very similar to the way people only use buses for local trips when rail might be better in some places e.g. MK.

That's certainly your view and it's fair enough but I don't really see what it has to do with anything here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No? There were no trains at all through to Chester for months on end.

For COVID? That is a very special case.

But even so most people will see a change at small, simple Hooton as better than one at big, confusing Crewe.

That's certainly your view and it's fair enough but I don't really see what it has to do with anything here.

It typifies that Liverpool to Chester via Crewe not being Permitted is not a great issue because hardly anyone will do it.

 

[Starmill]

For COVID? That is a very special case.

It's not. It's now the norm.

It typifies that Liverpool to Chester via Crewe not being Permitted is not a great issue because hardly anyone will do it.

Overwhelmingly what people do is go onto their trainline app, choose the quicker ones and buy an eticket. They don't go to the ticket office and ask for a saveaway then work out which routes that's valid on. Trainline won't even tell them the latter option exists, let alone sell them it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Overwhelmingly what people do is go onto their trainline app, choose the quicker ones and buy an eticket. They don't go to the ticket office and ask for a saveaway then work out which routes that's valid on. Trainline won't even tell them the latter option exists, let alone sell them it.

That is not the case on Merseyside because of the lack of eticket validity. They go to the station ticket office, ask for a Merseyrail Daysaver and use Merseyrail.

It is more like London where people will default to LU even if not quicker.

 

[Starmill]

That is not the case on Merseyside because of the lack of eticket validity. They go to the station ticket office, ask for a Merseyrail Daysaver and use Merseyrail.

It is more like London where people will default to LU even if not quicker.

I'm sure it was so in the days when you spent more of your time in the area in decades past. Things move on however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure it was so in the days when you spent more of your time in the area in decades past. Things move on however.

My family all still live there and I can assure you that the only way they ever go to Chester is on Merseyrail.

Do you live, or have you ever lived, on Merseyside? People don't use it like Manchester's local heavy rail - it's treated more like Metrolink, T&W Metro, LUL etc - you walk up and buy a ticket, and the modern-day change to that will (eventually) be contactless payment as per LU, not using a journey planner on your phone.

 

[Merseysider]

It typifies that Liverpool to Chester via Crewe not being Permitted is not a great issue because hardly anyone will do it.

That is my opinion too.

There is also the factor of price; nobody is going to pay more to go via Crewe when Merseyrail does the job just fine for a fiver.

 

[Polarbear]

As the OP, I'll add some context.

Nowadays, I live in Birkenhead, though I lived in Chester for 47 years previously. There's a beer festival at the Rail Heritage Centre (today as it happens), and I'm meeting some friends to travel down there. The plan is to go there, then return via Chester as it's easier to get back home that way.

I know there's an Off Peak Day return Green Lane - Crewe, priced £17.30 which is valid both via South Parkway & Chester, but realised that a Saveaway covered most of the routes traversed - hence the query regarding ticketing from South Parkway to Chester via Crewe. The negative easement referenced above rules that out, so thanks for that.

As for travelling between Liverpool & Chester, the route through Hooton is probably the prime route these days, but before electrification beyond Rock Ferry, it would have been somewhat less attractive in terms of both the change (though that was normally cross-platform for the most part) and frequency (hourly off peak for many years prior to extending electrification to Hooton).

 

[Starmill]

My family all still live there and I can assure you that the only way they ever go to Chester is on Merseyrail.

Do you live, or have you ever lived, on Merseyside? People don't use it like Manchester's local heavy rail - it's treated more like Metrolink, T&W Metro, LUL etc - you walk up and buy a ticket, and the modern-day change to that will (eventually) be contactless payment as per LU, not using a journey planner on your phone.

You don't appear to even have the basics right I'm afraid though. What makes LU different is pay as you go. Oyster payg then later contactless payg really changed the culture. Has pay as you go ever been available in Merseyside? And for some years Liverpool South Parkway to Chester tickets have been available as etickets.