Liverpool South Parkway connection times

[yorkie]

I wish to leave Southport at 1928 one day, and get the 2022 from Liverpool Lime St to York. Obviously I am not going to purchase the rip-off York to Southport fare, so I will be "splitting" at Manchester. The train from Southport arrives at Liverpool South Parkway (LPY) at 2027, and the York train departs at 2032. That's a 5 minute difference. The National Rail website states that the minimum connection time at LPY is "5 minutes". So this should be a valid connection. Yet when I enter Southport to Manchester via LPY it tells me to get an earlier train from Southport to allow more time to change at LPY. But I don't want to leave Southport any earlier, and I shouldn't have to as it's a valid connection!

Can anyone confirm if the National Rail website is correct regarding the minimum connection time at LPY?

Also the online booking sites are not allowing the Evening Return ticket to be selected for this journey, despite the train being valid for that ticket. Do I have to buy this at a ticket office, and can any ticket office do this (e.g. York)? I'd quite like a bike & seat reservation for the 2032 from LPY and an itinerary showing the 1928 from Southport, which should be a valid itinerary.

If anyone who works in a ticket office or similar can advise that would be greatly appreciated

Before anyone asks why I don't go via Wigan, I don't want to leave Southport any earlier and there isn't a later train that makes the TPE to York and I also want to be on the same train as other forum members going to London, as far as Liverpool.

(and if anyone is working in a ticket office in the London area this Friday night or on Saturday morning/evening and is happy to sell some complicated tickets including this one, plus others please PM me!)

 

[sonic2009]

I'd agree Yorkie, that unless the Station has a little number by the side of the station, then the National Minimum Change Time is 5 mins, but the reason why going via Liverpool South Parkway may not show this is as you have to get through 2 sets of barriers and stairs..

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool South Parkway is actually shown as a 7 minute connection time in Northern and Merseyrail timetables. However, TPE have omitted the extended connection time from their timetables.

I remember once changing between the Oxford Road-Lime Street service and the Hunts Cross-Southport service being told to change at Hunts Cross because there was only a 5 minute connection. That was actually soon after South Parkway opened so I would have preferred to change there but having not seen the station before didn't want to risk missing the Southport train.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Indeed, I've often thought that LPY ought to be 10 minutes, as it is quite a trek from one side of the station to the other.

 

[WestCoast]

IAlso the online booking sites are not allowing the Evening Return ticket to be selected for this journey, despite the train being valid for that ticket. Do I have to buy this at a ticket office, and can any ticket office do this (e.g. York)? I'd quite like a bike & seat reservation for the 2032 from LPY and an itinerary showing the 1928 from Southport, which should be a valid itinerary.

The 'GM & Beyond' Evening Return cannot be purchased online, or at Virgin, TPE or Merseyrail TVMs.

In theory, it can probably be sold at all ticket offices, whether they know how to do it or not is another matter. Local area offices will sell it easily, along with Northern guards (if appropriate).

 

[northwichcat]

as you have to get through 2 sets of barriers and stairs..

The barriers to the TPE/EMT/LM/NR platforms won't be active at the time of day which Yorkie will be travelling.

 

[trainophile]

You'll need to get your skates on to get from the incoming lower level, up the stairs, along 100 yds passageway, through two sets of barriers, up a long flight of stairs, a bit more passageway and down onto the platform, all in five minutes.

I have done it in reverse in three minutes, but I ran all the way and it took me 20 minutes to recover from the resulting coughing fit!

 

[First class]

Btw an evening return ticket is not valid on Merseyrail services.

. Cheap Evening Return tickets are half price Adult Off-Peak Day Returns (CDR). The fare is 50% of Off-Peak Day Return. Available for travel on Arriva Trains Wales, CrossCountry, East Midlands Trains, First TransPennine Express, Northern and Virgin Trains services.

 

[yorkie]

The barriers to the TPE/EMT/LM/NR platforms won't be active at the time of day which Yorkie will be travelling.

That's good to know.

In theory, it can probably be sold at all ticket offices, whether they know how to do it or not is another matter. Local area offices will sell it easily, along with Northern guards (if appropriate).

Are there any particular instructions or is it simply a case of the ticket clerk selecting an 'ECD' from the ticket type menu? I'd like to get it in advance to get a reservation if possible.

You'll need to get your skates on to get from the incoming lower level, up the stairs, along 100 yds passageway, through two sets of barriers, up a long flight of stairs, a bit more passageway and down onto the platform, all in five minutes.

As I will have a bike with me, which is no benefit (only a hindrance) getting across LPY, perhaps it is better to do Central - Lime St, which isn't far and I can cycle. I have 9 minutes to do that.

Btw an evening return ticket is not valid on Merseyrail services.

The route is "Any Permitted"; it is not a TOC specific fare. Can you show me anything in the public domain that states it is TOC specific?

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETS
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction
or prohibition will be shown on the ticket. If you travel in a train with a ticket that is not
valid, the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply. If you are unable to use a ticket

I do not believe the ticket will show such a prohibition.

 

[WestCoast]

Are there any particular instructions or is it simply a case of the ticket clerk selecting an 'ECD' from the ticket type menu? I'd like to get it in advance to get a reservation if possible.

I've only ever bought it from local offices in the GM area. However, I think it appears in the ticket type menu after the journey details have been entered, it certainly does on the Avantix database and Avantix Mobile machines. It's a normal ticket after all.

 

[northwichcat]

Btw an evening return ticket is not valid on Merseyrail services.

AFAIK Cheap Evening Returns are only available for travel to and from Manchester area stations from within Greater Manchester and selected non-PTE stations outside of Greater Manchester.

 

[sonic2009]

is this what your on about?

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/promotions/pr98d0b70a040002009df2181e745c3e/details.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Restriction : FE
EC - CHEAP EVENING RETURN

Cheap Evening Return tickets
are half price Adult Off-Peak
Day Returns (CDR). The fare is
50% of Offd-Peak Day Return.
Available for travel on_First
TransPennine Express, Arriva
Trains Wales, Virgin Trains,
Northern, East Midlands Trains
and CrossCountry.

IT IS VALID

Outward Travel
Any train between 1830 and
2100 daily.


Return Travel
Any train the same evening up
to 0230 the following morning,
where services are available.



Railcard / Child
No further discounts are
available.

Refund Arrangements
Normal refund arrangements
apply.

Excess Arrangements
Customers wishing to travel
prior to 1830 or after 2100
should be charged the
difference between the fare
charged and the normal
Off-Peak Day Return fare or
Anytime Day Return fare.

 

[WestCoast]

It appears you can now by them online: I've got RedSpottedHanky to sell one. However, it won't sell your journey Yorkie.

Actually, I think First Class may be right. Look at what National Rail say. It is a Northern and TfGM product and has restrictions - no mention of Merseyrail.

Limited Stations beyond the boundary of the TfGM area, including Southport are permitted.....

It's worth mentioning that they were not designed for use in the way Yorkie plans - whether it is valid or not I don't know....

 

[yorkie]

If they want to restrict the validity, they should adhere to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and place an appropriate routeing e.g. "Route Not Liverpool"/"Route Not Merseyrail"/"Route Wigan". How can they demand passengers adhere the the NRCoC if they can't be bothered to adhere to the Conditions themselves?!

 

[WestCoast]

If they want to restrict the validity, they should adhere to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and place an appropriate routeing e.g. "Route Not Liverpool"/"Route Not Merseyrail"/"Route Wigan". How can they demand passengers adhere the the NRCoC if they can't be bothered to adhere to the Conditions themselves?!

They've not thought it through and it is very misleading, but I am doubtful whether it is valid, since it is a TfGM product.

The ticket carries restrictions as follows, hence why booking sites will not sell it to you on that route....

Cheap Evening Return tickets are half the price of the Adult Off-Peak Day Return ticket and are available as follows:

between any two stations in the blue area (change of trains is allowed)
between any two stations in the white area or any station in the white area to any station in the blue area or vice versa (no change of trains allowed and your journey does not go beyond Manchester)

Outward travel:
Any train timed to depart between 18.30 and 21.00

Return travel:
Any train the same evening.

No railcard or child discounts permitted.

LINK TO MAP

 

[yorkie]

They've not thought it through and it is very misleading, but I am doubtful whether it is valid, since it is a TfGM product.

I don't think that, because TfGM apparently price the product, that instantly invalidates it! Validity is determined by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and the Routeing Guide.

As it happens, I have found a cheaper way to do the journey I want to do, so I won't be buying this ticket, I'll be buying a cheaper ticket instead.

However if anyone was to purchase such a ticket, I'd love to see Miseryrail try to argue in court that the NRCoC should be ignored. If there's any justice in our legal system (which I hope there is!), they'd lose. The NRCoC is quite clear on the matter.

 

[WestCoast]

It's got nothing to do with Merseyrail Yorkie, it's about Northern and Transport for Greater Manchester stating where their ticket is valid. Since Merseyrail don't serve the area of validity, it isn't valid. The the other TOCs do on respective routes, so it is valid.

Look at the map attached on my previous post. TPE would be within their rights to refuse the ticket as well on the aforementioned route.

I agree, it's misleading and a fine would not go through. It isn't consistent with and supportive of the NRCoC, the restrictions need clarifying. However, officially, it's invalid.

Calling them Miseryrail seems a little puerile, they have nothing to do with the situation! I value their ticketing and staffing policies.

 

[yorkie]

It's got nothing to do with Merseyrail Yorkie, it's about Northern and Transport for Greater Manchester stating where their ticket is valid. Since Merseyrail don't serve the area of validity, it isn't valid. The the other TOCs do, so it is valid.

Look at the map attached on my previous post.

I agree, it's misleading and a fine would not go through. However, officially, it's invalid. However, it isn't consistent with the NRCoC, the restrictions need clarifying.

Calling them Miseryrail seems a little puerile, they have nothing to do with the situation! I value their ticketing and staffing policies.

I'm sorry but this is not a zonal ticket requiring the use of a map. This is a ticket from Southport to Manchester valid by "any permitted route". Liverpool is a permitted route. If the ticket is not valid by any TOC this will be "printed on the ticket", yet no such restriction is printed on the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree, it's misleading and a fine would not go through. However, officially, it's invalid. However, it isn't consistent with the NRCoC, the restrictions need clarifying.

You mean they do not adhere to the NRCoC. Well, tough, NRCoC sets out the terms. If any holding company does not like it, then don't bid for franchises! It is a franchise requirement to adhere to the NRCoC.

Calling them Miseryrail seems a little puerile,

Who is suggesting calling Merseyrail? I wouldn’t say it was "puerile", more an irrelevance.

they have nothing to do with the situation! I value their ticketing and staffing policies.

What relevance does this have either?

 

[WestCoast]

I'm sorry but this is not a zonal ticket requiring the use of a map. This is a ticket from Southport to Manchester valid by "any permitted route". Liverpool is a permitted route. If the ticket is not valid by any TOC this will be "printed on the ticket", yet no such restriction is printed on the ticket.

All info from the page and leaflet about the special offer ticket. http://www.northernrail.org/offers/Cheap+Evening+Return+(Greater+Manchester+area)

I wouldn't be confident using it on your route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who is suggesting calling Merseyrail? I wouldn’t say it was "puerile", more an irrelevance.

You referred to them as Miseryrail, I didn't suggest calling anyone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What relevance does this have either?

None, but I don't see why Merseyrail is being made to look like the bad guys here. Looking at the map, TPE and even Northern on the Mersey City Line could refuse the ticket! Why do you think the booking sites WILL NOT sell the ticket for that route?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Avantix says "any permitted" but is that what it really means? I don't think it does.

Interestingly, this ticket also does not allow BOJ.

EVENING RETURN
Break of journey:
A break of journey is not allowed with this ticket except for changing trains at intermediate stations.
Validity:
The outward journey must be on the date shown on the ticket. The return journey must be on the date shown on the ticket. There are time restrictions on when you can travel with this ticket.
Train operator:
Arriva Trains Wales, Virgin Trains, East Midlands Trains, First TransPennine Express, Northern Rail
Booking deadline:
This ticket can be purchased in advance or immediately before travel.

 

[Statto]

The problem here seems to be the wording on the ticket, it seems to me that it has Any Permitted Route on the ticket which means that it is valid on Merseyrail. If it isn't valid on Merseyrail then it should have not Liverpool or not Merseyrail, or via Wigan only on the ticket.

It'd be interesting if anyone does use the ticket with Any Permitted Route via Merseyrail & get's a PF, as i'd have thought the PF would be thrown out if it went to appeal.

 

[WestCoast]

The problem here seems to be the wording on the ticket, it seems to me that it has Any Permitted Route on the ticket which means that it is valid on Merseyrail. If it isn't valid on Merseyrail then it should have not Liverpool or not Merseyrail, or via Wigan only on the ticket. .

The booking sites don't reckon it is "Any Permitted Route" (they wont sell it via Liverpool) as an Off-Peak Day Return would be, only Avantix has said this (misinterpretation?). It is a special offer ticket valid in the GM region and certain stations over that (see website).

It would be interesting to hear what ticketing staff say about this. I've been shot down from all angles, but I won't be using the ticket until the Northern Rail Special Offer page confirms its validity outside the GM area (and extensions).

 

[yorkie]

The problem here seems to be the wording on the ticket, it seems to me that it has Any Permitted Route on the ticket which means that it is valid on Merseyrail. If it isn't valid on Merseyrail then it should have not Liverpool or not Merseyrail, or via Wigan only on the ticket.

Indeed,

It'd be interesting if anyone does use the ticket with Any Permitted Route via Merseyrail & get's a PF, as i'd have thought the PF would be thrown out if it went to appeal.

What reason could they give? If they claim it is not valid due to a route restriction, my answers to that are:
1) The route is Any Permitted;
2) The Conditions of Carriage state that such a restriction will be "printed on the ticket";
3) The Penalty Fare regulations do not allow for a Penalty Fare to be issued for being 'off route'

The booking sites don't reckon it is "Any Permitted Route" (they wont sell it via Liverpool) as an Off-Peak Day Return would be, only Avantix has said this (misinterpretation?). It is a special offer ticket valid in the GM region and certain stations over that (see website)

.
Not sure what you are saying here? Are you suggesting that the ticket will not actually print with Route: Any permitted on it? If you think Avantix Traveller differs from actual Avantix machines, I am sure a guard can soon look it up and confirm this. But it's rather unlikely.

It would be interesting to hear what ticketing staff say about this. I've been shot down from all angles, but I won't be using the ticket until the Northern Rail Special Offer page confirms its validity outside the GM area (and extensions).

I don't need to use it on this occasion after all, I have found a cheaper ticket for the journey I wish to make! And you can choose not to use it if you wish. But anyone who makes the choice to use it, is adhering to the NRCoC and anyone who refuses to honour the ticket is, in my view, acting contrary to the NRCoC.

 

[WestCoast]

Not sure what you are saying here? Are you suggesting that the ticket will not actually print with Route: Any permitted on it? If you think Avantix Traveller differs from actual Avantix machines, I am sure a guard can soon look it up and confirm this. But it's rather unlikely.

So, basically your advice would be to ignore what the Northern website says?

 

[yorkie]

...but I don't see why Merseyrail is being made to look like the bad guys here.....

To clarify, if a customer purchases a ticket from Southport to Manchester, routed Any Permitted, and experiences no problems then that's fine.

If, however, a customer on such a ticket is told that there is a secret rule that means the ticket will not be honoured by Merseyrail, then if Merseyrail pursued payment I would hope the passenger would refuse and if Merseyrail then took it to court, I would hope/expect they'd lose (disclaimer: IANAL). If there is no suggestion Merseyrail would act in such a way then there is no problem. I only have a problem with Merseyrail if they do not comply with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. If they do not comply, then I have major concerns.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, basically your advice would be to ignore what the Northern website says?

Is there a requirement to read a website when purchasing a ticket? No, there is not. If you are adhering to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, and you are adhering to the route restrictions "printed on the ticket" then you should have no problems and no-one has the right to demand you read a website or any other document that does not form part of the contract between the TOC and the customer.

 

[Mojo]

So, basically your advice would be to ignore what the Northern website says?

''between any two stations in the white area or any station in the white area to any station in the blue area or vice versa (no change of trains allowed and your journey does not go beyond Manchester)''

Where is this contrary to the Northern Rail website?

Similarly I note they use the term ''no change of trains allowed'' which I presume for which they mean ''no break of journey.'' This is not mentioned in the restriction code.

 

[WestCoast]

Oh well, put this to bed then. I don't like this ticket. They should put via Wigan on it to clarify and be done with it. I don't think TfGM wanted their sponsored ticket to be used through the Merseytravel area, but oh well.

 

[yorkie]

Oh well, put this to bed then. I don't like this ticket. They should put via Wigan on it to clarify and be done with it. I don't think TfGM wanted their sponsored ticket to be used through the Merseytravel area, but oh well.

But, with all due respect, it doesn't matter (to the customer) what you, or TfGM, want. What matters contractually is what is valid in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

It is no longer the case that a guard can deem a route "unreasonable" on a whim, we now have definable permitted routes, and conditions that both parties must adhere to.

The idea that one party can disregard the conditions on a whim because they don't like them is not one I can accept.

 

[WestCoast]

But, with all due respect, it doesn't matter (to the customer) what you, or TfGM, want. What matters contractually is what is valid in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

It is no longer the case that a guard can deem a route "unreasonable" on a whim, we now have definable permitted routes, and conditions that both parties must adhere to.

The idea that one party can disregard the conditions on a whim because they don't like them is not one I can accept.

I was probably thinking too pro-TfGM there, I'll accept that they can't ignore conditions and that passengers have a contract with the NRCoC and not TfGM.

How the average passenger is supposed to know this I am unsure.

 

[yorkie]

How the average passenger is supposed to know this I am unsure.

Well, the average passenger would probably ask if via Liverpool is a permitted route for the journey, be told it is, and see the ticket says "any permitted" and think that's that. And why shouldn't they? After all, we are told that we can "buy with confidence" and that if a ticket prohibits use on any company it will be "printed on the ticket" and that as "Ticket terms and conditions are now the same across all train companies nationwide, so you know exactly where you stand" - none of these quotes I have made up! Is there any suggestion that any particular company will act in a way that is contrary to these quotes? If so I'd like that company to tell it to me directly so I can challenge them on that issue.

 

[First class]

This from the first page in the NRCoC:

The Train Companies may not give you less extensive
rights, except in the case of some types of reduced and discounted fare tickets where
the relevant condition(s) specifically allow them to do so.

Firstly, I would say this is a "Special Fare" under the RSP Agreement. Secondly I would comment that it is clearly a reduced or discounted ticket. Therefore strictly it is a "Special Discount Fare with conditions allowing deviation from the NRCoC" - in this case S.43.

The ticket conditions (restrictions) categorically state the TOCs that they are valid on, to which Merseyrail isn't.

Either way it is good advice that if somebody does intend to use a "dubious" ticket when they are potentially in a rush, like yorkie is, getting a ticket like this may only cause to delay you further. Fourtunately, yorkie has now got a different ticket combination which should be fine. Split tickets can save you money, but we can't forget that some passengers/customers may find their journey extended when dealing with Revenue Protection, rightly or wrongly.