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Liverpool to London sleeper service

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Vespa

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Does anyone remember the old Liverpool to London sleeper service ?

I went on it a few times in the early 90s, I do recall it was a very smooth run as it took about 7 hours I think so there was no hurry, I certainly knew I arrived in London when the brake was applied very smartly !

Sadly it was cut as it wasn't making a profit.
 
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Lemmy99uk

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Was it not a Manchester/Liverpool service that split/attached at Stafford, or is my memory dodgy?
 

jfollows

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Was it not a Manchester/Liverpool service that split/attached at Stafford, or is my memory dodgy?
Yes, I've used it from Manchester a couple of times.
Its demise pre-dated the Pendolinos; in 1977 the first daytime service from Manchester to London left at 07:00 so anyone needing to arrive into London before 09:30 had to use the sleeper or travel the previous day. Then shortly after 1977 I think there was an 06:00 departure (on which the early "Saver" tickets were valid) and then even later (by the 90s) a departure at something like 05:20 which was sometime HST stock. I suspect that in the 1970s and before the idea of getting up for a train departing at 5am would have correctly been thought as mildly silly and ridiculous, whereas now I suspect it's "expected".
 

Richard P

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I travelled on the London > Manchester version back in July 1990 and certainly from a seated perspective it was rammed, no idea if there were many in the cabins though. Used to leave Euston at 23.59pm and arrive Piccadilly at 6.30am but when I used it the normal arrival time was closer to 4.30am. Don't recall the split at Stafford for a Liverpool portion but that doesn't mean it didn't happen
 
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jfollows

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In 1977 it was 00:50 Euston to Liverpool, detach portion at Stafford for 1H02 03:00 to Manchester due to arrive 04:18
 

Merle Haggard

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In the later '60s at least it was 0030 from Lime St and called at Crewe, Stafford, Tamworth, Nuneaton, Rugby, Northampton and Bletchley. The last Liverpool Euston was 1830, although by catching the 2240ish local to Crewe and a wait there you could catch the Barrow sleeper.

Chasing steam both this and the Manchester were useful trains, and the slow journey time was not important as you were warm and comfortable.

They may have been useful to get to London comparatively early (the first Euston departure from Lime St was 0830) but equally so for a later evening departure. Oddly, the down services had only one call (Stafford on the Liverpool and Stoke on the Manchester)

There was a network of overnight long distance trains and they were certainly useful for spotters wanting to make the most of the day - return halves of day returns were valid on the next day's strains such as these, and sleep was usually possible. My own most adventurous use, making the most of a week's 'Freedom of Scotland' ticket, involved catching an up sleeper (day coaches!) from Glasgow or Perth each night then, after a short nap at Carlisle, returning on the first down one, to avoid the outlay on B&B. Sadly, on the occasion I caught a Carlisle-Edinburgh (Waverley Route) train I fell asleep at Kingmoor, was woken briefly by a jerky stop at Hawick, and the next thing I saw was Waverley. Still undecided whether it counted as route...
 

Mogz

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It appears in the 1991 timetable so that must have been its last year.
 

Andy R. A.

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I wrote an article for Traction magazine about a year ago which described the various Sleeping Car Services to/from Euston during the 70s. The southbound and northbound services operated slightly different from each other. As there were issues with platform occupation at Euston the southbound Liverpool sleepers came on the back of 1A02, normally four Sleeping Cars. They were shunted off into platform 15 at Euston along with the Sleeping Cars off the Barrow (1A00), Manchester (1A01), and Holyhead (1A04). This made up a train in platform 15 that allowed passengers to remain in their berths until 0730, with the Sleepers departing at 07:50 for Willesden as 5A50. This allowed the other seating portions of the incoming trains to be sent out to Willesden early to clear the platforms for the overnight Sleepers from Scotland.
As others had mentioned the return Sleeper to Liverpool departed at 00:50 combined with the Manchester Sleeper. This service was used a lot by Harold Wilson, and I noted one night that the train departed 6 minutes late waiting for him to turn up !
The majority of the seating coaches off the southbound services went back to Liverpool and Manchester combined on the earlier 1H26 2315 from Euston.
 

Vespa

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I do remember travelling in 1990 and 1991....shortly after it was announced they were cutting the service, in those days it used to take 4 hours by daytime train Liverpool to London.

With track and train upgrades this was cut down to 2 hour and 20 minutes.

A vast improvement.
 

Western Lord

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I do remember travelling in 1990 and 1991....shortly after it was announced they were cutting the service, in those days it used to take 4 hours by daytime train Liverpool to London.

With track and train upgrades this was cut down to 2 hour and 20 minutes.

A vast improvement.
4 hours from Liverpool to London in 1990/91? What route were you using!
 

jfollows

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In 1986 the first Liverpool-London service of the day was 1A08, 06:25, arrived Euston 09:11. The second, 1A11, was a "Pullman" service (this was using Mark 3 coaches, no longer the dedicated Mark 2 vacuum-braked stock) which left Liverpool at 07:05 and arrived Euston 09:43. I don't imagine much had changed 5 years later.
 

WesternLancer

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When that ran (up to 1967) it took around 8h15m (and ran via Oxford).
Thats IS lnegthy - not check the titmetable
When that ran (up to 1967) it took around 8h15m (and ran via Oxford).
That is lengthy - I’d not checked the timetable, but I see that in 1965 there was a sleeper taking just under 7 hours (indeed via Oxford) and an example of a day time train is one that left Paddington at 13.10 and arrived at Birkenhead 18.34 (so 5hrs 20) - not via Oxford but via Bicester. post 1965 to 1967 were they all via Oxford?

https://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=12&section_id=15

or here in 1949
https://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=5&section_id=-1

Obv you still have to get across to Liverpool.

These must have been interesting trains to travel on!
 

Statto

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4 hours from Liverpool to London in 1990/91? What route were you using!

Think the early Sunday services until 12pm back then took 4 hours when they avoided the Trent Valley, & often went via Northampton, Liverpool-Euston journey time when everything was normal was around 2 hours 45 minutes

Most of the sleepers went in 92 in the run up until privatisation, only leaving the sleepers we currently have

First train Monday to Friday now departs Liverpool 05.26 arrives in Euston 07.50
 

AY1975

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It appears in the 1991 timetable so that must have been its last year.

Yes, I think the Manchester/Liverpool Sleeper was withdrawn at the end of the 1991 summer timetable along with the Barrow and Holyhead Sleepers, although I seem to recall that for a short while after that at least on Saturday nights there was still a late night Euston-Manchester with similar timings to the erstwhile Sleeper but with seated coaches only.

I never travelled on the Liverpool/Manchester Sleeper, and it must have been difficult to photograph because of the hours that it kept, but I seem to recall that right up until the end the seated coaches on it were often non-air-conditioned Mark 2C stock (which would sometimes also be used on at least one daytime train - I remember travelling from Euston to Manchester in a Mark 2C as late as about 1991 instead of the more usual Mark 2 air-cons or Mark 3s).

See also the thread on the Manchester Sleeper at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/sleepers-at-manchester.169401/
 

Statto

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When that ran (up to 1967) it took around 8h15m (and ran via Oxford).

Yep ran via Shrewsbury as well, at least the train taking just over 8 hours end to end you could get a proper sleep, think it went via Wolverhampton Low Level station too.

When Birkenhead Woodside closed the sleeper was cut Shrewsbury-Paddington, not sure when that was withdrawn
 

Taunton

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When we moved to The Wirral in late 1960s a London family relative who visited Merseyside engineering projects, and us, regularly took the sleeper back south. I recall he said it was hit and miss whether in the 2nd class cabin you shared with someone who had drunk far too much before boarding, even those still in business suits. Goodness knows why so many late night travellers board sozzled. The berth charge was notably less than their overnight hotel allowance so a little margin was made.
 

Bookd

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I have never done so, but if I were to share a cramped sleeper cabin with a complete stranger I would probably wish to have a few first!
 

WesternLancer

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When we moved to The Wirral in late 1960s a London family relative who visited Merseyside engineering projects, and us, regularly took the sleeper back south. I recall he said it was hit and miss whether in the 2nd class cabin you shared with someone who had drunk far too much before boarding, even those still in business suits. Goodness knows why so many late night travellers board sozzled. The berth charge was notably less than their overnight hotel allowance so a little margin was made.
I think issue is that if train leaves at say 11pm, and work mtgs end circa 5pm, what choice of places do you have to kill time in the eve in practical terms?

I recall going to a university interveiw in edinburgh c 1986, then booked sleeper back south afterwards, and eeking out a pint slowly for some time in the students union bar before heading to waverley. If I'd had more money then I'd have probably drunk more beer!
 
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