Llandudno (Junction) - Euston: No advances?

[itfcfan]

I'm going to Llandudno on the evening of Friday 7th July. My girlfriend (who I hold a Two Together railcard with) will be coming up with me and returning on the afternoon of Sunday 9th July, while I'll move on to Chester and Manchester later before returning to London.

Taking advantage of the Two Together railcard I've purchased two advance singles to go up to Llandudno on the Friday evening.

However, looking for advances returning from Llandudno on Sunday I can't find anything cheaper than the off-peak single of £88.70. Are the no/few advances available on this route because there's no feasible alternative operators here and/or much lower capacity to be filled up? It seems strange advances are available for peak hours on a Friday coming up from London but not on the return on Sunday afternoon.

Does anyone have any tips for a good split when returning from Llandudno? Raileasy hasn't shown anything, but maybe there's another ticket to be started short on or something more creative to bring the price down.

If all else fails I might look into excessing/changing our existing advances on Friday into off-peak returns (losing the two together discount in the process). It'd be annoying to do that as I had found a reasonably priced first class advance for the way up... Can a 1st class advance be excessed to a standard class off-peak return? Or is the process refund the ticket and start afresh? Is fee to be paid £10 per ticket?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

John

 

[Bletchleyite]

If cost is really important but time less so could you buy regular singles to Crewe then use LM?

 

[itfcfan]

If cost is really important but time less so could you buy regular singles to Crewe then use LM?

Thanks for this suggestion.

I should qualify that the aim is still to take a direct Virgin service to return on Sunday (ideally the 14:40 - it seems every service after this requires a change...).

In terms of cost, I was hoping/expecting to see similar pricing to other Virgin routes (Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow) where you can usually find an advance single for around half the cost off an off-peak return - it will be annoying to spend £1 less than an off-peak return for a single to get back to London. If I can get the cost down to £50/60 for the single getting back to London that'd be ok - otherwise I'll look and refunding the existing tickets and booking an off-peak return.

It serves me right for thinking of the Two Together discount and booking that first (I thought there'd be higher demand on the Friday evening) rather than considering the fares for all parts of the journeys together...

 

[Bletchleyite]

For clarity, Advances are not refundable, though they can be excessed to something else.

 

[takno]

If cost is really important but time less so could you buy regular singles to Crewe then use LM?

That would get the far down to less than 30. There are Virgin advance fares for 31 as well.

 

[itfcfan]

For clarity, Advances are not refundable, though they can be excessed to something else.

Thanks for confirming. Excessing first class advances (with a two together railcard discount) to standard off-peak returns (without the railcard discount, as the returns will be made at different times) sounds pretty complex - I wonder if this is possible?

 

[father_jack]

Making enquiries

 

[gray1404]

Off the top of my head, see if VT Advances are on offer from Chester, and if not there then Crewe (as you would be able to pick up an ex Scotland/NW England service there). Also, as someone else has suggested on here look for a cheap LM Advance from Crewe.

I wonder if VT might release Advances on the ex Wales services nearer to the date of travel with it being a Sunday. (Although I would have expected them to have done so by now).

 

[itfcfan]

Off the top of my head, see if VT Advances are on offer from Chester, and if not there then Crewe (as you would be able to pick up an ex Scotland/NW England service there). Also, as someone else has suggested on here look for a cheap LM Advance from Crewe.

There are cheap advances all the way to Crewe on the 14:40 service (which is our target service). But from Crewe to London on this service there's only a standard single for ~£55. There appear to be very few services stopping at Crewe on that Sunday - however, a later service from Manchester has advances available so maybe an option. I'll have to weigh it up against excessing the ticket we currently have to a normal off-peak return (which would be £89 - i.e. £44.50 each way).

I wonder if VT might release Advances on the ex Wales services nearer to the date of travel with it being a Sunday. (Although I would have expected them to have done so by now).

I've looked at this Sunday, next Sunday and the Sunday after on this route and it seems advances aren't available on any of them. I guess it's due to the low provision of services on this route..?

 

[Merseysider]

There are Advance 1st Class fares (no Standard ones) available on the 1440 Llandudno Junction to Crewe at £14.

A West Midlands Day Ranger is £25.60.

A single from Rugby to Milton Keynes is £12.40 and a single from MKC to Euston is £14.80.

Total £66.80 without any discounts. If you travel together that'll be around £44 each.

There may be a cheaper option but that would enable one to travel from LLJ to EUS on the 1440, as the train doesn't need to call at Rugby due to the use of the day ranger, just pass through (which it does) and it does call at Milton Keynes Central (which it needs to do for the non-ranger split).

 

[itfcfan]

There are Advance 1st Class fares (no Standard ones) available on the 1440 Llandudno Junction to Chester at £14.

A West Midlands Day Ranger is £25.60.

A single from Rugby to Milton Keynes is £12.40 and a single from MKC to Euston is £14.80.

Total £66.80 without any discounts. If you travel together that'll be around £44 each.

There may be a cheaper option but that would enable one to travel from LLJ to EUS on the 1440, as the train doesn't need to call at Rugby due to the use of the day ranger, just pass through (which it does) and it does call at Milton Keynes Central (which it needs to do for the non-ranger split).

Thanks Jake. That's exactly the kind of less intuitive solution I was looking for!

I'm also considering excessing to an off-peak return, if that turns out to be possible...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You do realise you can match a saver one way with an off-peak half return (SVH) in the other direction?
You have to book them both in one transaction on the VT site.
That would bring the fare down to £44.80.
Probably too late now...

 

[itfcfan]

You do realise you can match a saver one way with an off-peak half return (SVH) in the other direction?
You have to book them both in one transaction on the VT site.
That would bring the fare down to £44.80.
Probably too late now...

I couldn't find a way to do this in this instance, because there are two of us (applying a two together railcard discount) but returning on different days via different routes.

 

[Dvorak]

1336 Llandudno Junction - Crewe (arr 1454) - £14 first class advance
1537 Crewe - Euston (arr 1853) - £9.50 standard advance.

Wow, that second one is a cow train - no wonder there's seats.

Hardly ideal, but cheap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A cow train?

 

[andythebrave]

Crewe to Wolverhampton 1601-1632 £7 STD advance & Wolverhampton to Euston 1645-1838 £23 STD advance. Same train, no change and not LM.

 

[Dvorak]

A cow train?

One which takes a very long time to wend its way to its destination, due to stopping everywhere to have the cattle trucks loaded up.

I mean it as a historical reference, not as a comment on the current clientele

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A cow train?

Ironically, the last cow train I saw was at Chester on a regular Sunday cattle train from Holyhead, carrying Irish cattle off the ferry for slaughter in the UK.
Used to be looped at Chester to let the Irish Mail service overtake, circa 1965.
The moos while it waited used to attract attention, much of it critical, about their travelling conditions (and the smell).
Proper cattle class...
Doubtless they all travel on the A55/M56 these days.

 

[Merseysider]

Crewe to Wolverhampton 1601-1632 £7 STD advance & Wolverhampton to Euston 1645-1838 £23 STD advance. Same train, no change and not LM.

Nice find.

 

[andythebrave]

Sorry that's 9 mins at Crewe, not enough. 1630 from Crewe is £27.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One which takes a very long time to wend its way to its destination, due to stopping everywhere to have the cattle trucks loaded up.

I mean it as a historical reference, not as a comment on the current clientele

Ah, it's the LM. Those trains do get *very* full - LM still sell price-dumped Advances on them though. There are no seat reservations, but this is not really a problem as few board at Crewe itself so you can secure a seat early on.

Don't travel 1st on these trains unless you need a socket (and it isn't a 350/3 that has them in all table seats). The seat spacing in 1st is tighter than Standard (well, the layout is the same but the seats are still 2+2 and thicker).

 

[Deafdoggie]

I haven't checked, but another option is to change at Crewe, then SOT (Stoke) as Virgin will sometimes have cheap advances from SOT and not Crewe. EMT and LM operate between Crewe and SOT on a Sunday afternoon, and all day in the week (although the weekly service has two trains an hour, but at 5 and 55 minute gaps!) the Sunday service is more evenly spaced.

 

[gray1404]

Ah, it's the LM. Those trains do get *very* full - LM still sell price-dumped Advances on them though. There are no seat reservations, but this is not really a problem as few board at Crewe itself so you can secure a seat early on.

Don't travel 1st on these trains unless you need a socket (and it isn't a 350/3 that has them in all table seats). The seat spacing in 1st is tighter than Standard (well, the layout is the same but the seats are still 2+2 and thicker).

And even then it is possible, rather then board a Crewe, to get a later departure onto the Liverpool - Birmingham LM service when it leaves Crewe and change at Stafford. The LM Crewe to Euston service has to loop round Stoke on Trent thus allowing for a later departure time - which may help if the OP is alighting from an ex North Wales/Chester service. I am not sure though if the later departure and connection at Stafford is possible on a Sunday.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you do that you get less choice of seating, though.

From Dec I believe it loses the Stoke wobble and goes to 8-car which should solve most of the overcrowding issues.

 

[gray1404]

Crewe to Wolverhampton 1601-1632 £7 STD advance & Wolverhampton to Euston 1645-1838 £23 STD advance. Same train, no change and not LM.

If doing this then could book online on VTWC and if their seat selector if working, ensure reservations on the same seats though to Euston.

 

[bb21]

Thanks Jake. That's exactly the kind of less intuitive solution I was looking for!

I'm also considering excessing to an off-peak return, if that turns out to be possible...

In case I missed an earlier reply, yes, this is possible, upon payment of the difference in fare and an admin fee.

The issue with Railcards is a bit grey iirc but willing to be corrected, as excessing away a Railcard discount was never a formally documented process, and YMMV depending on local instructions, although I suspect that if you can find a clerk capable of issuing the excess, chances are that he/she will be willing to excess it to the non-Railcard discounted fare, but no guarantees obviously.

You may have to shop around. Virgin East Coast ticket offices can be quite good at it, from forumites' experiences, so can some Virgin West Coast ticket offices, which can be more variable.

 

[itfcfan]

In case I missed an earlier reply, yes, this is possible, upon payment of the difference in fare and an admin fee.

The issue with Railcards is a bit grey iirc but willing to be corrected, as excessing away a Railcard discount was never a formally documented process, and YMMV depending on local instructions, although I suspect that if you can find a clerk capable of issuing the excess, chances are that he/she will be willing to excess it to the non-Railcard discounted fare, but no guarantees obviously.

You may have to shop around. Virgin East Coast ticket offices can be quite good at it, from forumites' experiences, so can some Virgin West Coast ticket offices, which can be more variable.

Thanks bb21.

To confirm, in this case the scenario would be:

Excessing FROM:
2 x Advance Singles (First Class)
With Two Together railcard discount

TO:
1 x Off-peak Returns (Standard Class)
Without railcard discount
Plus
1 x Advance Single (Standard Class)
Without railcard discount

So there are more complications than just the railcard discount being removed. If I try this option, I'll update on here with my success or otherwise!