LMS Railway Ticket

[Andy873]

Hi all,

This morning I purchased an LMS railway ticket. Now I haven't bought an old one before and although I've read a few posts on here I would like to ask some basic questions about it please:

1. This is the remaining half of a cheap day return... was the outward journey (missing half) from Burnley?

2. Did each station hold many tickets for many destinations? I've seen photos of ticket cupboards, but surely you couldn't hold tickets for every destination possible?

3. There is no price on this 1941 ticket, did the booking clerk calculate it from distance travelled or had that practice gone by 1941?

4. Could the price of this ticket be found anywhere, just for curiosity?

Just in case you may wonder, Burnley B. Top was short for Burnley Bank Top station, which was later renamed Burnley Central.

 

[pdeaves]

Hi all,

This morning I purchased an LMS railway ticket. Now I haven't bought an old one before and although I've read a few posts on here I would like to ask some basic questions about it please:

1. This is the remaining half of a cheap day return... was the outward journey (missing half) from Burnley?

2. Did each station hold many tickets for many destinations? I've seen photos of ticket cupboards, but surely you couldn't hold tickets for every destination possible?

3. There is no price on this 1941 ticket, did the booking clerk calculate it from distance travelled or had that practice gone by 1941?

4. Could the price of this ticket be found anywhere, just for curiosity?

Just in case you may wonder, Burnley B. Top was short for Burnley Bank Top station, which was later renamed Burnley Central.

1. Yes
2. Yes (not every destination possible but all the common ones from that station; obscure destinations were hand written on a special blank ticket)
3, 4. Don't know!

 

[WesternLancer]

2. Did each station hold many tickets for many destinations? I've seen photos of ticket cupboards, but surely you couldn't hold tickets for every destination possible?

3. There is no price on this 1941 ticket, did the booking clerk calculate it from distance travelled or had that practice gone by 1941?

4. Could the price of this ticket be found anywhere, just for curiosity?

Hi - ref Q 2 - when I used the train to go to school in the 1980s tickets were still Edmondsons - i use a small station in the south east. Inside the ticket office was quite a large slotted wooden rack on one wall - there were many pre printed tickets for popular destinations stocked in the rack - other less common destinations would then be written on the ticket - so I would say that a bigger town would have a wider range of pre printed tickets for more destinations. I doubt even the biggest stations would have every destination even on their own system tho - esp a big system like the LMS.

ref 3&4 - I have it in mind that distance based prices lasted into the 1960s, and the price per mile was maybe published in the system timetable. If the mileage was also in the LMS system timetable than you can work it out presumably fairly closely - and thus is maybe considered to be 'published'.

Makes me wonder however, if fares to popular local destinations might have been posted at stations - eg like a poster of such fares. I have no idea about that - interesting question.

 

[30907]

It was normal for the price to be printed along with the origin and destination - and sometimes amended manually before issue. Mileage based ticketing lasted into the early 70s at least - and longer in some areas (eg the complexities of the SR; I recall the novelty around 1979 of an artifically high "mileage" rate being used for London-Gatwick.)

 

[Gloster]

There was a thread a while back called Ticketing - Change from Big 4 to BR . (Sorry, I can’t do a link.’

 

[Bevan Price]

At the end of the "outward" part of a return journey, it was common practice for the ticket to be torn in half, and the outward half of that ticket was retained by staff at your detination.

The railway companies published (internal) books of distances between stations. I have a copy for one used to calculate distances used to calculate the cost of sending merchandise by passenger train, but it (or a similar book) could probably be used to calculate passenger fares.

The copy I have gave distances from Shrewsbury (plus 2 "key locations" ) to most LMSR stations in England, (1929) and would also be used for "minor" stations in the Shrewsbury, by adding (or subtracting) the distance between Shrewsbury and that local station. I would also assume that there were similar books for other key locations, e.g. London.

You could not use the distances in timetables (passenger or WTT) because it calculated the distances based on the actual junctions where "theoretical" reversals of direction might occur.

For example, Shrewsbury to Stafford is shown as 29 miles 20 chains.
Shrewsbury to Norton Bridge was calculated based on a nominal reversal at Stafford (Shrewsbury line junction), 9 chains north of Stafford station and was 34 miles 27 chains.

If you were travelling from, say, Condover, you would need to add 4 miles 26 chains to the distance from Shrewsbury.

Distances shown are always the "shortest possible route" between two stations, and sometimes it can be difficult to see which route was used.

The "key locations for calculations in this book were at Stafford - the junction with the Shrewsbury line, and the junction with the LNER line.

The book generally excluded most stations on GWR, LNER or SR. I assume there must have been separate books for such inter-company calculations.

There was also a separate insert with distances from "border" stations (e.g. Carlisle, Berwick) to most stations in Scotland.

 

[Andy873]

There was a thread a while back called Ticketing - Change from Big 4 to BR . (Sorry, I can’t do a link.’

Thanks, I found the link but couldn't see anything that really applies here.

For example, Shrewsbury to Stafford is shown as 29 miles 20 chains.
Shrewsbury to Norton Bridge was calculated based on a nominal reversal at Stafford (Shrewsbury line junction), 9 chains north of Stafford station and was 34 miles 27 chains.

Fortunately the journey from Burnley to GH is rather simple, it's straight down the EL line and swing off at Rose Grove West and onto the GH line, and it's as simple back to Burnley.

I can work out a few things though:

The full return journey was just short of 14.5 miles.
Under the very old system of 1d per mile, it would have cost an adult 14.5d.
In 1956 BR charged 1s, 6d for an adult cheap day return for this journey.

I assume a child's fare was half price?

If so, the price could be anywhere between 7 or 8d to 13d (but 13d is 2nd class not 3rd as per the railway ticket)....

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[pdeaves]

(but 13d is 2nd class not 3rd as per the railway ticket)....

To all practical purposes, "3rd class" was "2nd class". By the 20th century, most companies only had 1st and 3rd. There were one or two odd exceptions (boat trains, mainly; worthy of a separate thread in its own right!) but for the period you are looking at, forget about 2nd.

 

[Andy873]

but for the period you are looking at, forget about 2nd.

Thanks, okay it's gone from my mind!

Confused again:

I've seen a ticket (don't know what date it is or if it's BR etc) but it says the following

"Padiham To" the destination is blank and yet it had been clipped? even the fare price is missing?

It also has the word "ONE" on it - presume that means one way?

Why would you issue a ticket without a destination on it - you could go anywhere...

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, okay it's gone from my mind!

Confused again:

I've seen a ticket (don't know what date it is or if it's BR etc) but it says the following

"Padiham To" the destination is blank and yet it had been clipped? even the fare price is missing?

It also has the word "ONE" on it - presume that means one way?

Why would you issue a ticket without a destination on it - you could go anywhere...

One day Rover?

But indeed that is interesting - I'd assume that was the ticket stock that I would assume the destination would be written in on, so as you say - why is that one blank...

 

[Andy873]

But indeed that is interesting - I'd assume that was the ticket stock that I would assume the destination would be written in on, so as you say - why is that one blank...

Could it have been part of an unused block of tickets that were clipped to stop anyone using them e.g. if found by the public?

 

[WesternLancer]

Could it have been part of an unused block of tickets that were clipped to stop anyone using them e.g. if found by the public?

I have to say I did wonder exactly the same sort of thing myself.

 

[pdeaves]

Could it have been part of an unused block of tickets that were clipped to stop anyone using them e.g. if found by the public?

That, or the writing has faded away over the years (probably less likely).

 

[Andy873]

The ticket does not mention a railway company on it, I can only assume (and I hate assuming) that it's a BR one. The destination / fare is definitely blank on this one.

I'm wondering now if at the end of regular passenger services along the line (2/12/1957 or shortly after) someone had the job of clipping all unused tickets from Padiham station?

If this ticket is post closure of regular passenger services you wouldn't have been able to travel from there anyway as the station was closed to the public. You might have tried a journey from Rose Grove but at some point I'm sure it would have been questioned.

EDIT:
I've just found out it is a BR one.

 

[Gloster]

Third Class became Second Class as from 3 June 1956. Up until then it had only survived on BR on services operating in connection with Continental ones, such as boat trains. I suspect that a circular went out saying that tickets marked Third could still be issued for Second Class journeys.

I would have expected that on closure the Station Master would have been responsible for recording all the unused tickets in the racks and then returning them to the relevant section at Divisional or Regional level. Could the ticket have been used as a single: the return half is clipped so that it can’t be used to return with, but was left attached to the ticket to avoid the passenger having only half of a ticket? At the end of the journey the used outward half was collected at the barrier in the normal way, but the unused part handed back to the passenger, which is why it still exists. This practice may have been a normal one, or it might have been due to running down ticket stocks as closure approached. Printed tickets were supplied in blocks, possibly a minimum of a 1000, and a conscientious stationmaster does not want to order a new block of a little-used ticket and then have to return 998. (All guesswork, I am afraid.)

 

[Andy873]

but was left attached to the ticket to avoid the passenger having only half of a ticket?

It just says "ONE" at the top left of it.

It's described as a "BTC(M)" ticket number 118 and has British Railways on the back.

I presume BTC stands for the British Transport Commission?

The "(M)" is shown at the bottom left of the ticket - presume that's means the London Midland Region?

This one must date (if I have the BTC right) anywhere from 1948 - 1962?

My best guess is still that this was clipped very late 1957 (when regular passenger services stopped) or early 1958.

 

[MichaelAMW]

It was normal for the price to be printed along with the origin and destination - and sometimes amended manually before issue. Mileage based ticketing lasted into the early 70s at least - and longer in some areas (eg the complexities of the SR; I recall the novelty around 1979 of an artifically high "mileage" rate being used for London-Gatwick.)

If it was an "Ordinary" ticket - that would be an Anytime these days - there was a requirement to have the fare printed on the ticket and for it to be amended by hand if it was wrong. Reduced fares, e.g. cheap day returns, off peak returns, monthly returns, were OK - even to the point that a pre-printed Edmondson didn't have the fare at all.

 

[Andy873]

I've seen another ticket for sale, and I need urgent help on this please!

This next ticket is dated 1957, it says it's a 3rd class ticket, and has L.M. & S. R on the top front of it.

Would BR still be using up LMS tickets nine years in?
There are no terms / conditions on the back only the date?
Are there fakes out there?

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Difficult to say, but not unusual for booking offices to still be issuing tickets for certain flows on old ticket stock for many years after nationalisation.

 

[Andy873]

Difficult to say, but not unusual for booking offices to still be issuing tickets for certain flows on old ticket stock for many years after nationalisation.

Thanks for that.

Also, according to the 1957 fares table, 2nd class for this journey was 9d, this shows 2d so not sure if this is a child one or not.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You able to upload a photo?

 

[Andy873]

You able to upload a photo?

I will send you a PM if you don't mind - thanks.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Received, thanks.

Looks rather similar to this example.





If genuine, and not saying it is, presumably a souvenir from the last day of service on the old Great Harwood loop. Does the fare quoted check out for the Padiham - Nelson example? (Might possibly be the fare from pre-nationalisation days!)

 

[Andy873]

Does the fare quoted check out for the Padiham - Nelson example?

No, but I have only a list of 2nd class cheap day returns, and for this one it's listed as 11d, not 1/1 as per ticket.

The ticket you've posted here - is this an adult one? single or return please?

My thoughts about it being a souvenir also comes to mind. Thanks very much I will think on it!

Andy.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The ticket you've posted here - is this an adult one? single or return please?

It's not a two portion (half and half) ticket, so I would say that it's probably an Adult Single.

My thoughts about it being a souvenir also comes to mind. Thanks very much I will think on it!

By "Souvenir" I'm suggesting that although it was valid for travel, the purchaser never intended to use the ticket for an actual journey and just wanted something to keep that was issued on the last day of service.

 

[Gloster]

I think that it was common practice to continue to use tickets after the price of the journey had risen and the one shown on the ticket was no longer valid. The old price would be struck out in ink and the new one written in. (Never underestimate the old railway’s habit of getting the best value out of everything. What! Throw out hundreds of old tickets just because they don’t have the current price on them. Ink is only ... a bottle.)