LNER announce CAF fleet

[ac6000cw]

140mph is an aspiration for York to Northallerton so I expect these will be 140mph capable.

Given that the first UK fleet of trains with 140mph capability was built over 30 years ago and has never run in normal service at 140 mph, I'm not holding my breath for 140 mph running on 'classic' lines...

 

[St. Paddy]

Well bearing in mind they 225s have to be gone by 224 due to in can signalling, it’s hardly unexpected.

More like 2027 by the time it’s tested and Drivers are trained, maybe even later

 

[Sorcerer]

Quite a surprise announcement, but also a nice welcome one. I do hope the 91s and MK4s find a new place in future though! But with regards to the new design it'll be interesting to see how close the final product will be to the design concept images. Still not a fan of the LNER livery though to be honest.

 

[Benjwri]

As much as CAF is good for LNER, this means LNER is going to have the newest fleet of any franchise operator by a long way. Would the money not be better spent on one of the many operators who's trains are literally falling apart

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

140mph is an aspiration for York to Northallerton so I expect these will be 140mph capable.

397s are not 140mph capable (and while rated as 125mph units, they do not exceed 110mph on the WCML).

 

[Sebastian]

Does LNER suffer from capacity problems and if so, will this help that?

 

[HST43257]

Does LNER suffer from capacity problems and if so, will this help that?

The LNER routes are some of the most consistently busy from my view (no stats but I rarely see a quiet LNER service), so perhaps not suffering in the sense that we have normalised underprovision, but perhaps that LNER is being given the opportunity to grow its already good system of working

 

[TreacleMiller]

Does LNER suffer from capacity problems and if so, will this help that?

Yes.

The company's relationship with Hitachi is a more than a bit strained right now.. and the cost is phenomenal to lease and maintain 80X.

CAF units have been an open secret within the company for a while, though things keep changing.

Very good chance 91s will be gone faster than 2027/28 too.

 

[The_Train]

Unless of course that ‘rest of your fleet’ was a woefully below par product from another manufacturer who also had very much not set the world on fire. Particularly if the situation had fostered a poor working relationship with said manufacturer.

It certainly doesn't shed a positive light on Hitachi in the UK market at the present time

 

[Some guy]

Would be interesting if they do get 397s they take the TPE approach and align every seat with the windows In standard class. It’s amazing that idea never caught on with newer trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very good chance 91s will be gone faster than 2027/28 too.

If these are basically 397s but with engines and batteries, I guess that will mean acceptance etc is a bit easier than a completely new design.

Would be interesting if they do get 397s they take the TPE approach and align every seat with the windows In standard class. It’s amazing that idea never caught on with newer trains

They look, from the pictures, to have a Standard "size" window (10 bodyside windows per 24m vehicle, 80x have 9 for a First Class spacing) which means they certainly could. Will be interesting to see what they do in 1st to cope with that - my personal suggestion would be to do it Class 158 style, i.e. alternating a bay (window and both pillars) and either one or two airline rows (window only), thus keeping it aligned.

But even if they don't, the deadlights on CAF units are quite small compared to 80x. Indeed the windows generally are huge. Shame the ECML doesn't have the views the WCML does, though a 397 is certainly a good way to enjoy stunning Shap!

 

[DanNCL]

Very good chance 91s will be gone faster than 2027/28 too.

91s seem to have a habit of surviving attempts to get rid of them. First with the initial rollout when the decision was subsequently made to keep some sets, then again in May 2021 when they returned to service at short notice during the 80x cracking saga.

I reckon they'll last until these CAF units arrive, and then be withdrawn within a couple of months max of the first CAF unit entering service.

 

[quantinghome]

Quite a surprise announcement, but also a nice welcome one. I do hope the 91s and MK4s find a new place in future though! But with regards to the new design it'll be interesting to see how close the final product will be to the design concept images. Still not a fan of the LNER livery though to be honest.

I doubt it. They will be pushing 40 years old by the time these new trains come into service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Frankly, they’ll deserve everything they get from having two fleets of steaming manure.

These new CAF trains might not be that yet. The Hitachi fleet has certainly proven itself somewhat troublesome, but we can't yet know that a fleet announced today will be horrendous.

Taken from LNER website, link below from announcement that 10 x 10 car CAF trains will be introduced from 2027, to replace the intercity 225 and provide some extra trains.

First Tri-Mode Long Distance Trains For The East Coast Main Line

London North Eastern Railway (LNER) is pleased to confirm that CAF has been named as the successful bidder to deliver a fleet of 10 new tri-mode trains for LNER. Porterbrook has been chosen as the financier of the new fleet. The trains will be able to operate in electric, battery or diesel mode.

www.lner.co.uk

I think they look very unique and quite cool - I'm glad we're going to have a change at long last from the same 80x taking over the country - but I would love to see the yellow fronts replaced by red on both these and the existing Hitachi fleet.

I wonder if they'll retain Fainsa Sophia seating to keep a consistent product across their network on every service?

The Intercity 225s have always been my favourite locomotive-hauled stock in the UK, and I always much preferred travelling on a 225 to a HST, and similarly I always prefer travelling on a 225 to an Azuma, but sad as I will be to see them go, I must remind myself 2027 is still a massive seven year extension on the original plan to sack them off in 2020. They will also be forty years old when introduced (1988 introduction, no rolling stock introduction is on time so 2028 is probably a safe bet) and you really don't want high speed trains going longer than that. Mind you, I'll be sure to get some final rides in over the next three years or so.

I doubt it. They will be pushing 40 years old by the time these new trains come into service.

I'm sure Ian Yeowart will always have a solution

 

[H&I]

Will these trains have level boarding?

 

[RailWonderer]

They look, from the pictures, to have a Standard "size" window (10 bodyside windows per 24m vehicle, 80x have 9 for a First Class spacing) which means they certainly could. Will be interesting to see what they do in 1st to cope with that - my personal suggestion would be to do it Class 158 style, i.e. alternating a bay (window and both pillars) and either one or two airline rows (window only), thus keeping it aligned.

But even if they don't, the deadlights on CAF units are quite small compared to 80x. Indeed the windows generally are huge. Shame the ECML doesn't have the views the WCML does, though a 397 is certainly a good way to enjoy stunning Shap!

CAF are known to use different window widths as with 196s and 197s, though they are normally as tall as Voyager windows so here's hoping they align like 197s and 158s.
The ECML has great views over Durham, Newcastle and Berwick viaducts but the rest of it is dull.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will these trains have level boarding?

No.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No they haven’t, however Lumo has a better comfort seat, and Emr is supposedly better

Their 803s and 810s are, however, the sole product of their operations (Intercity operations for EMR), whereas what with sixty-odd out of seventy-odd of LNER's fleet being fitted with Fainsa Sophia seating, you'd think it might be best to fit the CAFs with the same interiors so that they can offer a consistent product across their entire fleet. At the moment they have two fleets with very different interiors from each other.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their 803s and 810s are, however, the sole product of their operations (Intercity operations for EMR), whereas what with sixty-odd out of seventy-odd of LNER's fleet being fitted with Fainsa Sophia seating, you'd think it might be best to fit the CAFs with the same interiors so that they can offer a consistent product across their entire fleet. At the moment they have two fleets with very different interiors from each other.

There is the option of the TfW base. The Sophia isn't that bad a seat, other than the metal bar issue, and TfW appear to have fixed that. Even if you push down on it the bar doesn't seem to be there at all.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It’s amazing that idea never caught on with newer trains

It isn't surprising if you consider who's ordering them. TOCs like First - and I'd probably say First more than any other TOC when it comes to this, although Abellio and Arriva are just as bad - care about cramming as many seats into a train as possible, and that's how the obscure seat-window relationship is born. Aligning them with the seats would reduce capacity/density

 

[Sorcerer]

So, once these trains have entered service, I'm wondering how long it will be before in true CAF fashion we see cracks begin to appear on the chassis.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My main query about these trains is the formations of services

You'd think if these are tri-mode trains replacing 225s that primarily work to Leeds, they'd be managing Harrogate every two hours (and Skipton/Bradford, though these don't require anything other than electricity of course). So will the 800/2 and 801/1s simply be used as permanent pairs then? If they're not even to be used on the West Yorkshire extensions, arguably the only part of the route where 5 car running is acceptable, it really will prove that ordering 5-Azumas was a poor idea.

 

[Iskra]

It isn't surprising if you consider who's ordering them. TOCs like First - and I'd probably say First more than any other TOC when it comes to this, although Abellio and Arriva are just as bad - care about cramming as many seats into a train as possible, and that's how the obscure seat-window relationship is born. Aligning them with the seats would reduce capacity/density

Pretty sure that’s driven by politicians/the DFT liking to claim how many additional seats they’re providing on routes, which the old franchising method used to promote. I’m not sure it’s a company-specific thing. Virgin/LNER have dabbled in this too.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Any ideas what their classification will be. 396 or 820 seem the most likely.

 

[Neptune]

So, once these trains have entered service, I'm wondering how long it will be before in true CAF fashion we see cracks begin to appear on the chassis.

Im not aware of any CAF trains with a cracked chassis. There was the cracking issue with the yaw dampers and I’m fairly sure these new trains will be built with the modified more substantial dampers.

As I said before there was another train which suffered the same issue (Hitachi 8xx).

It makes me laugh. Enthusiasts get so upperty when the media drags out the same old dull lines such as ‘leaves on the line’ and ‘wrong kind of snow’ but then constantly bore the rest of us constantly with the equally dull ‘ironing board seats’ and ‘cracking trains’ jibes.m and I bet they don’t see the irony of it all.

 

[fgwrich]

The tender for the trains was made just before the UK left the EU, and the EU has strict competition laws (see Alstom’s takeover of Bombardier/surrendering of designs) that meant that even if LNER wanted to, they couldn’t order anymore Azumas. Can imagine both the price and limited offers from other manufacturers for high speed trains lead to CAF being chosen.

While there is that, The more information that's seems to be emerging points to LNERs displeasure with Hitachi - a lot of missing deadlines including crack repairs, fleet repairs and not providing enough trains per day per the ridiculous DfT created contract, plus the recent performance review reveals a deepening poor relationship between LNER and Hitachi. I wonder if they were allowed to bid as per the process, but CAF had been chosen long before the tender released. Tony Miles (Modern Railways Mag) has also hinted at delays forecasted for the EMR 810 fleet too.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Any ideas what their classification will be. 396 or 820 seem the most likely.

Probably in the 7xx series.

 

[LYuen]

Any ideas what their classification will be. 396 or 820 seem the most likely.

Wild guess: 790 or 795-797?
7 same as other tri-modes, 9 for intercity trains, 95-97 are the same as other CAF Civity trains

 

[DanNCL]

Any ideas what their classification will be. 396 or 820 seem the most likely.

Wild guess: 790 or 795-797?
7 same as other tri-modes, 9 for intercity trains, 95-97 are the same as other CAF Civity trains

As these are effectively bi-mode 397s, 797 would be appropriate. Entirely speculative at this point though!

 

[Purple Train]

I think they look very unique

This annoyed me rather more than it should have done.

As these are effectively bi-mode 397s, 797 would be appropriate. Entirely speculative at this point though!

Why are the classifications going up so high, so soon? If the strategy is just to go for the "catchier" ones (777, 755, 710, 720, 730 etc.) then we'll be running out of class numbers in no time, given the general reticence to "go backwards". So, my pick would be 804/806 (isn't it 8 for long-distance bi-modes?).