LNER Football Additional Trains Cancelled (Not actually cancelled) (24/05)

[ainsworth74]

Sur

Well it is buck passing?

But this is very much a feature of the IET contract. Unlike traditional lease agreements, Hitachi are solely responsible for the trains and all maintainence.

That can be explained to passengers, who are not stupid.

It's not like LNER can switch suppliers tomorrow, or are even the ones who chose Hitachi in the first place (in fact, they could make a bit thing about their new train order *not* being with them...)

Unless of course, LNER are the ones failing to hold up their side and return trains to the right depots on time etc.

Sure, it's not especially complex to explain. I'm not sure a station PA or station screen is the place to do it!

 

[Taunton]

Unless of course, LNER are the ones failing to hold up their side and return trains to the right depots on time etc.

It really would have to be someone with zero railway (any railway) operating knowledge who expected trains in intensive long distance service to return to one of a number of depots in the right order and precisely on time every day. Presumably they expect zero unplanned defects to be discovered as well ...

 

[43096]

It really would have to be someone with zero railway (any railway) operating knowledge who expected trains in intensive long distance service to return to one of a number of depots in the right order and precisely on time every day ...

That’ll be the DfT and Hitachi, then!

 

[800001]

It really would have to be someone with zero railway (any railway) operating knowledge who expected trains in intensive long distance service to return to one of a number of depots in the right order and precisely on time every day ...

LNER have it in their contract that this must return a set amount of each of the 4 sub classes to certain depots at the end of each day. If they do not, they incur penalty charges.
That is why when there is service disruption, services are often terminated short to get them into a depot. (Operational convenience).

 

[D1537]

From what I can see today:
5W11 never made it to KX this morning, 801204 is working 1W11 which will presumably terminate at Edinburgh. 801228 was stepped up to 1S11 from 1S12.
800105 was 1A15 Leeds-KX and should have formed 1D11 1103 to Harrogate, but has been stolen to cover 801228 on 1S12 1030 to Edinburgh and 1D11 is a 5-car Azuma, reported as full and standing and terminating at Leeds (so I'm guessing it's an 801/1).
1A16 southbound was 1 hour late, so 801208 was pinched to form its return working 1S13. 801208 should have done 1S15 1130 to Edinburgh, which has been cancelled. Not sure if this one is fault-related.
1A18 has been turned round onto 1S14 (again presumably because of an unavailable 801/2, this set is booked empty off Bounds Green) and is 2 x 5-car which should stuff the reservations. Another 2x5-cars have been found to cover 1A18's return working.

(Edit: When 800105 arrived in Edinburgh with 1S12 it was then turned into 1W11 with all the passengers transferred across. Given the hassle that must have been it amazingly only spent 9 minutes in Waverley and arrived at Aberdeen only 57 late in the end, and 801204 left southwards on time with the return working of 1S12. Good work all round there.)

 

[chiltern trev]

LNER have it in their contract that this must return a set amount of each of the 4 sub classes to certain depots at the end of each day. If they do not, they incur penalty charges.
That is why when there is service disruption, services are often terminated short to get them into a depot. (Operational convenience).

Does this imply that the Hitachi penalty charges outweigh the passengers refunds? Would appear so.

Do any other train maintenance contracts have similar penalty charges? And equally do Hitachi get hit for similar financial penalties for late unit availablity into service?

If an LNER unit is late into a depot, through a fault attributable elsewhere, thus incurring a penalty charge, can LNER pass the penalty charge onto the attributable organisation (other TOC, Network Rail, etc )

 

[Taunton]

Does this imply that the Hitachi penalty charges outweigh the passengers refunds? Would appear so.

Do any other train maintenance contracts have similar penalty charges? And equally do Hitachi get hit for similar financial penalties for late unit availablity into service?

If an LNER unit is late into a depot, through a fault attributable elsewhere, thus incurring a penalty charge, can LNER pass the penalty charge onto the attributable organisation (other TOC, Network Rail, etc )

Bear in mind that the majority (possibly the vast majority) of those "entitled" to refunds do not claim them. Whereas the penalties from the maintenance provider are doubtless just automatic. The participants on this forum are a real outlier for their understanding of how to go about it, or having the time and knowledge to do so.

 

[IanXC]

Do any other train maintenance contracts have similar penalty charges? And equally do Hitachi get hit for similar financial penalties for late unit availablity into service?

GWR's IEP contract?

If an LNER unit is late into a depot, through a fault attributable elsewhere, thus incurring a penalty charge, can LNER pass the penalty charge onto the attributable organisation (other TOC, Network Rail, etc )

LNER can only obtain the usual financial recompense via the Delay Attribution regime.

 

[D1537]

Bear in mind that the majority (possibly the vast majority) of those "entitled" to refunds do not claim them. Whereas the penalties from the maintenance provider are doubtless just automatic. The participants on this forum are a real outlier for their understanding of how to go about it, or having the time and knowledge to do so.

True in general, but if you have booked through LNER they make it very easy to claim with one click. I received this email around 2 minutes after my train had arrived in Edinburgh!

 

[Clarence Yard]

If either GWR or LNER put a wrong set on a wrong depot they don’t incur penalty charges but Hitachi can put out at least one less than the usual availability requirement the following morning. This also applies if a set is vandalised or damaged whilst in the care of the TOC.

This is significant because there is a daily payment for the use of the train (with a floor for the number of trains usually diagrammed) and the TOC doesn’t get the financial benefit for loss of availability. As that availability cost per unit per day is five figures, that is potentially a big loss every time you mess up.

The whole maintenance “window” regime was contracted at the same time as the units were ordered. It was based on the SDG timetable produced for the DfT and the maintenance windows apply 7 days a week. There are different length maintenance “windows” that apply for each depot, by set type, with some also having to be taken consecutively.

GWR has succeeded in loosening a few of the contractual requirements by agreement but it is still a very rigorous regime which the DfT has to authorise any changes to. The TOCs can’t just go and agree any changes by themselves.

 

[enginedin]

True in general, but if you have booked through LNER they make it very easy to claim with one click

And Caledonian Sleeper is totally automatic back to the card used to pay for the journey

 

[Bald Rick]

If either GWR or LNER put a wrong set on a wrong depot they don’t incur penalty charges but Hitachi can put out at least one less than the usual availability requirement the following morning. This also applies if a set is vandalised or damaged whilst in the care of the TOC.

This is significant because there is a daily payment for the use of the train (with a floor for the number of trains usually diagrammed) and the TOC doesn’t get the financial benefit for loss of availability. As that availability cost per unit per day is five figures, that is potentially a big loss every time you mess up.

The whole maintenance “window” regime was contracted at the same time as the units were ordered. It was based on the SDG timetable produced for the DfT and the maintenance windows apply 7 days a week. There are different length maintenance “windows” that apply for each depot, by set type, with some also having to be taken consecutively.

GWR has succeeded in loosening a few of the contractual requirements by agreement but it is still a very rigorous regime which the DfT has to authorise any changes to. The TOCs can’t just go and agree any changes by themselves.

Presumably this is only for those contracted through the IEP contract, and those that GWR contracted ‘conventionally’ have different arrangements. Hopefully not involving the DfT!

 

[Horizon22]

Does this imply that the Hitachi penalty charges outweigh the passengers refunds? Would appear so.

Ultimately yes. GWR has the same issue and trains are for example routinely short-formed out of Paddington because a particular unit is needed at North Pole or Stoke Gifford in the ongoing jigsaw puzzle GWR controllers are trying to resolve on a daily basis, let alone with or after service disruption. It’s not as bad as it was because I think GWR successfully challenged some elements with Hitachi - with at least some appreciation of the potentially extreme customer impact this inflexible attitude was having - but it does still occur.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Presumably this is only for those contracted through the IEP contract, and those that GWR contracted ‘conventionally’ have different arrangements. Hopefully not involving the DfT!

They still have a daily payment regime because that is what Hitachi is all about - you have a train supply agreement, not a conventional lease but a lot of the IEP intricacies are not there. It is looser.

The Japanese culture does dictate things. It is a very structured and exact approach and matching resources exactly to depot resources is very much part of that culture. It is also a way they control costs.

So they put great emphasis on them receiving the units at the right time, at the right depot because every depot is tooled up exactly for that workload.

 

[Horizon22]

So they put great emphasis on them receiving the units at the right time, at the right depot because every depot is tooled up exactly for that workload.

Whilst I can understand that principle, it is contrary to dealing with a train service that may suffer unforeseen disruption and - to benefit more passengers overall - may lead to booked diagrams changing. Flexibility is part and parcel of a passenger transport operation.

Whilst other fleet providers highlight requirements, none seem as operationally restrictive or as unfriendly to passengers as Hitachi’s for IET / IEP.

 

[H F Stephens]

True in general, but if you have booked through LNER they make it very easy to claim with one click. I received this email around 2 minutes after my train had arrived in Edinburgh!

This only works for the most ‘vanilla‘ of bookings, unfortunately.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Whilst I can understand that principle, it is contrary to dealing with a train service that may suffer unforeseen disruption and - to benefit more passengers overall - may lead to booked diagrams changing. Flexibility is part and parcel of a passenger transport operation.

Whilst other fleet providers highlight requirements, none seem as operationally restrictive or as unfriendly to passengers as Hitachi’s for IET / IEP.

The problem here is the variety of types and multiplicity of depots with specific minimum daily requirements for each one. To get the units in the right place the operator is faced with the unenviable choice of either foregoing the lack of availability payment for the following day (as I stated five figures per unit per day) or cancelling trains.

If you have a situation where you are stepping up or stepping down the same unit type, all is good but if it is a different type, that’s where it can all go wrong because your spare units for that type will often be at the wrong depot for an overnight substitution. Then you could be shortforming on your morning run-out and having to put right in mid-diagram. So you are putting right the previous days problems the day afterwards and then you have that days issues to deal with as well. It never stops.

Rule 1 of fleet replacement - have an identical length fleet, preferably of one type. The DfT thought otherwise was best.

 

[Horizon22]

The problem here is the variety of types and multiplicity of depots with specific minimum daily requirements for each one. To get the units in the right place the operator is faced with the unenviable choice of either foregoing the lack of availability payment for the following day (as I stated five figures per unit per day) or cancelling trains.

If you have a situation where you are stepping up or stepping down the same unit type, all is good but if it is a different type, that’s where it can all go wrong because your spare units for that type will often be at the wrong depot for an overnight substitution. Then you could be shortforming on your morning run-out and having to put right in mid-diagram. So you are putting right the previous days problems the day afterwards and then you have that days issues to deal with as well. It never stops.

Rule 1 of fleet replacement - have an identical length fleet, preferably of one type. The DfT thought otherwise was best.

But this what I mean; you either forego availability and pay massive fines or you massively inconvenience passengers through cancellations. It’s not flexible at all.

It’s the railway network and even if there are efforts to keep disruption to a minimum, it will inevitably happen sometimes which requires interventions with trains and crew being removed from booked working (i.e diagrams) and being changed over. Controllers have to respond to keep the job going, and fleet requirements really should be at the back of their mind.

GWR have this problem and with depots as far flung as Laira, Maliphant, Stoke Gifford and North Pole and a long-distance train network trains may only converge once (if at all) and probably at Paddington which no doubt is doing multiple unit swaps and short-forming throughout the day, just to firefight.

It’s not a effective or particularly efficient way of doing things, but as you say having effectively 4 types of 80x isn’t at all helpful, and the DfT requirements were not suitable for a real-life railway operation unfortunately.

 

[Clarence Yard]

You don’t pay fines for late or wrong delivery - the penalty is lack of rebate for a non available set the next day and that is big bucks.

The penalty (rebate) regime is a one way flow - from Agility/Hitachi to the TOC only.

 

[D1537]

LNER have it in their contract that this must return a set amount of each of the 4 sub classes to certain depots at the end of each day. If they do not, they incur penalty charges.
That is why when there is service disruption, services are often terminated short to get them into a depot. (Operational convenience).

They do have some flexibility, though. To take the 9-cars as an example, they need to return the following;

800/1 (10 sets out of 13)

• Neville Hill 3
• Doncaster Carr 2
• Aberdeen 2
• Inverness 1
• Bounds Green 1
• Heaton 1

801/2 (23 sets out of 30)

• Craigentinny 9
• Bounds Green 7
• Heaton 5
• Neville Hill 1
• Doncaster Carr 1

So they can switch the unused sets around a bit; for example today there is a Doncaster-Bounds Green empty 801/2. The real problems start when there is an operational incident so bad that multiple services are cancelled or terminated short.

 

[43094]

The above is broadly correct, albeit that there are 26/30 9-car electrics available to LNER, including their spares.

However, as well as the above, the Hitachi maintenance plan also needs factoring in when returning units to depots.

Example: if 801201 is due an exam that night at Bounds Green, and 801202 is due Pantograph repairs that night at Craigentinny, it's often not possible (or agreeable to Hitachi) to swap the two requirements about at short notice, if there's disruption.

This leads to the trade-offs stated above, of whether to sacrifice service 'on the day' to protect the day(s) after. There's a whole range of internal & external factors which will influence the final decisions....

 

[Adrian1980uk]

They do have some flexibility, though. To take the 9-cars as an example, they need to return the following;

800/1 (10 sets out of 13)

• Neville Hill 3
• Doncaster Carr 2
• Aberdeen 2
• Inverness 1
• Bounds Green 1
• Heaton 1

801/2 (23 sets out of 30)

• Craigentinny 9
• Bounds Green 7
• Heaton 5
• Neville Hill 1
• Doncaster Carr 1

So they can switch the unused sets around a bit; for example today there is a Doncaster-Bounds Green empty 801/2. The real problems start when there is an operational incident so bad that multiple services are cancelled or terminated short.

But here you can see where the problem lies, some of the depots only require one train to be returned to them, very limited flexibility in the morning to substitute sets, nature of the operation but take greater Anglia stadlers, having most units returned to Norwich every night, the flexibility to substitute in the morning and buy time will definitely help.

 

[The exile]

They still have a daily payment regime because that is what Hitachi is all about - you have a train supply agreement, not a conventional lease but a lot of the IEP intricacies are not there. It is looser.

The Japanese culture does dictate things. It is a very structured and exact approach and matching resources exactly to depot resources is very much part of that culture. It is also a way they control costs.

So they put great emphasis on them receiving the units at the right time, at the right depot because every depot is tooled up exactly for that workload.

Let’s introduce a further Jaoanese style element - every time Hitachi fail to honour their contract their Chair must personally apologise to passengers at every station.

 

[ainsworth74]

But here you can see where the problem lies, some of the depots only require one train to be returned to them, very limited flexibility in the morning to substitute sets, nature of the operation but take greater Anglia stadlers, having most units returned to Norwich every night, the flexibility to substitute in the morning and buy time will definitely help.

Slightly easier though to do that when you're core inter-city services takes place between two cities around 115 miles apart rather than four cities between 185, 268 and 393 miles apart (excluding extensions away from that core service)!

I'm not sure how LNER could manage to return most units to one depot every night considering the geography of their route so they'll never be able to do what GA can in terms of organising their maintenance plans even if they weren't beholden to Hitachi and the contract of idiocy.

 

[D1537]

But here you can see where the problem lies, some of the depots only require one train to be returned to them, very limited flexibility in the morning to substitute sets, nature of the operation but take greater Anglia stadlers, having most units returned to Norwich every night, the flexibility to substitute in the morning and buy time will definitely help.

Not quite, though - if a train doesn't reach Aberdeen or Inverness the previous night because of some incident, the next morning's train will simply be started from Edinburgh, so I doubt if those destinations even include any penalty. As for the others, it is fairly easy to switch sets around between them (indeed, the 801/2 diagrams even include two booked ECS trains from Edinburgh to Heaton because the diagrams don't balance!)

 

[800001]

Not quite, though - if a train doesn't reach Aberdeen or Inverness the previous night because of some incident, the next morning's train will simply be started from Edinburgh, so I doubt if those destinations even include any penalty. As for the others, it is fairly easy to switch sets around between them (indeed, the 801/2 diagrams even include two booked ECS trains from Edinburgh to Heaton because the diagrams don't balance!)

And if the set can’t make it to Aberdeen or Inverness, 99% of time a Kings Cross to Edinburgh had to terminate at Newcastle and ecs to Heaton as Craigentinny can not take the extra set

 

[Horizon22]

You don’t pay fines for late or wrong delivery - the penalty is lack of rebate for a non available set the next day and that is big bucks.

The penalty (rebate) regime is a one way flow - from Agility/Hitachi to the TOC only.

Okay but the net result in the same - a loss of overall revenue for the TOC/DfT. It is still no good choice for passengers when the financial regime for units is having such an impact on train service.

 

[D1537]

And if the set can’t make it to Aberdeen or Inverness, 99% of time a Kings Cross to Edinburgh had to terminate at Newcastle and ecs to Heaton as Craigentinny can not take the extra set

Though it has been known to leave a set in Waverley platform 5 or 6 overnight if required.

 

[800001]

Though it has been known to leave a set in Waverley platform 5 or 6 overnight if required.

Yes, with permission sought from Edinburgh Signal Centre. As often there is platforms required to be ‘wheels free’.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

What would be the alternative though? You can’t really drive to Wembley on match day can you?

Those in the know drive to Warwick Parkway !