LNER proposal to withdraw Stirling and Glasgow Central direct services: what do you think should happen?

[Bletchleyite]

LNER sounds so defeated. Should be moving the other way. Go hourly in place of XC if we care so much about going green.

Operating domestic Scottish services is not LNER's job to be fair.

 

[Failed Unit]

I used it once in January 2020. The southbound service was virtually empty, the few other passengers on it were (like myself) only there for the novelty of having a 91 to Stirling.

The northbound one was better used but still not busy, I think about a quarter of the seats were occupied in my carriage.

The Northbound service isn't actually at a bad time. Arriving at Stirling around 2010. More people are likely to look out that service from the South as it is direct and not at an anti-social time. But then the connection onto the Scotrail service isn't much as a hardship either.

Operating domestic Scottish services is not LNER's job to be fair.

I suspect that Scotrail will be providing an hourly service with the vacated paths between Glasgow Central, Motherwell and Edinburgh, possibly with a few extra stops en route.

 

[thealexweb]

Operating domestic Scottish services is not LNER's job to be fair.

By that logic we’ll split everything at Berwick then…

 

[Bletchleyite]

By that logic we’ll split everything at Berwick then…

I think that's reductio ad absurdem to be honest. LNER is in essence a European style international service within Scotland (and could well actually become that should Scotland secede) - it gains some domestic use but is not primarily for that purpose - its primary purpose is taking people to/from England, primarily London. Thus if there are plenty of London<->X travellers it is fulfilling their purpose, but if it's just being used as a posh commuter service then it's ScotRail that should be operating it.

 

[Peter0124]

Is the demand there for 1tph (or even 1tp2h) between York and Glasgow with TPE?

 

[800Travel]

Is the demand there for 1tph (or even 1tp2h) between York and Glasgow with TPE?

If it operated as an all station stopper, it could be good. Would also boost connections between DAR DHM and NCL.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Is the demand there for 1tph (or even 1tp2h) between York and Glasgow with TPE?

Almost certainly between Leeds and Glasgow.

 

[Failed Unit]

When GNER operated the service every 2 hours, it wasn't really well loaded (unless the Falkirk route has a problem) - Not enough to justify a 9 coach train. Most of the time each coach was less than 1/4.
During the period when XC actually ran the service it used to be reasonably loaded (remember these are mainly small voyagers) I don't recall it ever being full. So demand was there to a degree but not lots. So if it is operated by XC, LNER or TPE on a 2 hourly basis, it will really be a debate about what can the unit do elsewhere. On XC arguments can be made that it should be used to strengthen a service closer to the core.

 

[Kite159]

When GNER operated the service every 2 hours, it wasn't really well loaded (unless the Falkirk route has a problem) - Not enough to justify a 9 coach train. Most of the time each coach was less than 1/4.
During the period when XC actually ran the service it used to be reasonably loaded (remember these are mainly small voyagers) I don't recall it ever being full. So demand was there to a degree but not lots. So if it is operated by XC, LNER or TPE on a 2 hourly basis, it will really be a debate about what can the unit do elsewhere. On XC arguments can be made that it should be used to strengthen a service closer to the core.

And remember when XC ran the services to Glasgow more frequently they had their own 'XC only' fares which offered a reasonable saving over the any permitted fare.

 

[A S Leib]

I don't know how big the Glasgow-south ECML flows are, though, I suspect not that big or it wouldn't have been 1tpd

Around 15 per day from Peterborough (5382 per year) and half that from Doncaster to / from Glasgow Central and Queen Street, although there's probably lots more counted as going from Peterborough / Doncaster to Edinburgh and then Edinburgh to Glasgow.

If there were to be a more frequent Glasgow – Newcastle and south service, would it be worth making it pick up / set down only at Waverley and Haymarket?

 

[Trainbike46]

Around 15 per day from Peterborough (5382 per year) and half that from Doncaster to / from Glasgow Central and Queen Street, although there's probably lots more counted as going from Peterborough / Doncaster to Edinburgh and then Edinburgh to Glasgow.

If there were to be a more frequent Glasgow – Newcastle and south service, would it be worth making it pick up / set down only at Waverley and Haymarket?

why on earth would you do that?

 

[A S Leib]

why on earth would you do that?

To stop LNER / XC / TPE from providing domestic Scottish services (although I'm not entirely convinced that that isn't one of their jobs myself, just not their main job), although I suppose that's only necessary if there's insufficient capacity for Glasgow – NE / Yorks passengers.

 

[ainsworth74]

although I suppose that's only necessary if there's insufficient capacity for Glasgow – NE / Yorks passengers.

I'm not aware of that as having ever been an issue.

 

[kaysha]

When XC became the principal Glasgow East cost operator I actually thought that made a lot of sense as it gave Glasgow passengers a direct service to the likes of Leeds and Sheffield.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

So if they pull out of glasgow, where have they got room to stable the extra set currently at Polmadie, as far as I am aware there's no room at the inn at Craigentinney, so unless a unit from there is moved over to Polmadie I wonder how that would affect potential changes

 

[Peter0124]

So if they pull out of glasgow, where have they got room to stable the extra set currently at Polmadie, as far as I am aware there's no room at the inn at Craigentinney, so unless a unit from there is moved over to Polmadie I wonder how that would affect potential changes

Heaton possibly? There is actually two Edinburgh to Heaton moves already.

Or the unit just gets sent back south somewhere in service to eg Leeds, Doncaster or Kings Cross.

 

[MontyP]

Better utilisation of sets.
The evening Glasgow set would do a later than current Edinburgh to Kings Cross.
Unsure about the Stirling and how that impacts the timetable.

There's already a 1936 from Edinburgh to Kings X arriving at 0112, well after the last tubes have gone. I imagine this service carries very few passengers, are you suggesting introducing an even later one?

 

[Failed Unit]

There's already a 1936 from Edinburgh to Kings X arriving at 0112, well after the last tubes have gone. I imagine this service carries very few passengers, are you suggesting introducing an even later one?

Actually passengers have pushed for a later service from Edinburgh for years.Currently the last train is 2100. Many stakeholders have pushed for one around 2300 - to call at the local stations to Newcastle. In the morning maybe running an early Morning service from Newcastle also be a better use of the set if it can’t stay in Edinburgh,

The always say their is no demand to run later than 2100 from Edinburgh south, but the best way to test that is to provide a service.

 

[Class 170101]

Actually passengers have pushed for a later service from Edinburgh for years.Currently the last train is 2100. Many stakeholders have pushed for one around 2300 - to call at the local stations to Newcastle. In the morning maybe running an early Morning service from Newcastle also be a better use of the set if it can’t stay in Edinburgh,

The always say their is no demand to run later than 2100 from Edinburgh south, but the best way to test that is to provide a service.

There is a 22:00 to Newcastle on Fridays balancing the extra Kings Cross to Edinburgh on Fridays (extended from Newcastle).

Sunderland is also useless service at 2000 off the Cross.

Yes but one does wonder would it be possible to extend this train to Sunderland instead

Realtime Trains | 1N29 1818 London Kings Cross to Newcastle | 21/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 1N29 1818 departure from London Kings Cross to Newcastle on 21/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

and this one to start back

Realtime Trains | 1Y11 0630 Newcastle to London Kings Cross | 21/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 1Y11 0630 departure from Newcastle to London Kings Cross on 21/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Aren't they still trying to introduce a daily Cleethorpes service within the next year or two, as well as having recently added Middlesbrough?

These both seem strange in the context of withdrawal of the Stirling and Glasgow services.

 

[Failed Unit]

There is a 22:00 to Newcastle on Fridays balancing the extra Kings Cross to Edinburgh on Fridays (extended from Newcastle).


Yes but one does wonder would it be possible to extend this train to Sunderland instead

Realtime Trains | 1N29 1818 London Kings Cross to Newcastle | 21/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 1N29 1818 departure from London Kings Cross to Newcastle on 21/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

and this one to start back

Realtime Trains | 1Y11 0630 Newcastle to London Kings Cross | 21/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 1Y11 0630 departure from Newcastle to London Kings Cross on 21/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

These both seem strange in the context of withdrawal of the Stirling and Glasgow services.

The Sunderland one was also planning to be ended, once the 2024 is implemented,

The Cleethorpes one may not have the stock away for as long, as it will return to Doncaster every evening taking about 1 hour. That said it does seem odd, unless there are other things that we are not seeing with these services, such as re-use of the path. I guess the will introduce it, if it doesn’t load it will go.

 

[Bald Rick]

unless Cross Country reinstate their former offering, I’d predict they might not be allowed to drop that one.

allowed by whom?

Route knowledge doesn’t alter, same crews drive towards Perth and Inverness.

It removes the need for Glasgow route knowledge .

The inbound set on the Glasgow service stables at Polmadie to work the return service the following day, so very little dead running.

For the train perhaps, but not the crew. AIUI they are taxied to/from Polmadie. I bet the taxi costs each day are more than the marginal industry revenue. This will remove a fair bit of route learning from Edinburgh Waverley depot, which is time that can be much better employed running services to London.

LNER sounds so defeated

Ridiculous statement. Withdrawing a couple of services that cost a lot to provide, for minimal revenue, with minimal impact on passengers, to deploy that resource elsewhere for far greater revenue and to serve many more passengers is not ‘defeated’.

 

[Walter Whigham]

Of more critical importance is the preservation of the Chieftain north of Edinburgh, and the failure of LNER to guarantee that this service will operate every day. I know that Visit Scotland has concerns about this and its effect on the tourist industry.

 

[Falcon1200]

Personally I am surprised that LNER's one per day Glasgow train has lasted as long as it has, and am not surprised that it is now going. Post-Covid, with Cross Country also having almost abandoned Glasgow, the lack of through trains between Glasgow and Newcastle, York and Leeds in particular is desperately poor; These are large cities and/or major traffic centres! Hopefully, at some stage a two-hourly (at least) service will be restored, by Cross Country, Trans Pennine, or shared between them.

 

[A S Leib]

Post-Covid, with Cross Country also having almost abandoned Glasgow, the lack of through trains between Glasgow and... Leeds

Did Doncaster ever have a CrossCountry service to / from Glasgow or Aberdeen?

 

[Jordan1296]

The inbound set on the Glasgow service stables at Polmadie to work the return service the following day, so very little dead running.

Very little dead running for the train, but crews still have to be taxied between Glasgow & Edinburgh (and vice versa).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Almost certainly between Leeds and Glasgow.

Do you have a source for that?

Did Doncaster ever have a CrossCountry service to / from Glasgow or Aberdeen?

It had predominantly hourly Newcastle services with limited extensions to Edinburgh.

 

[MontyP]

Actually passengers have pushed for a later service from Edinburgh for years.Currently the last train is 2100. Many stakeholders have pushed for one around 2300 - to call at the local stations to Newcastle. In the morning maybe running an early Morning service from Newcastle also be a better use of the set if it can’t stay in Edinburgh,

The always say their is no demand to run later than 2100 from Edinburgh south, but the best way to test that is to provide a service.

Makes more sense if only as far as Newcastle, I thought you meant all the way to London!

 

[800001]

Makes more sense if only as far as Newcastle, I thought you meant all the way to London!

The plan is for a train between the current 1936 London and the 2100 Leeds, this additional is planned to run to London.

 

[driverd]

I think most people are quite clear that the loss of LNER to Glasgow is far more about Glasgow to the north/east of England and not to London. This being the case, I would suggest the status quo is likely the worst of both worlds. A single train per day doesn't really give enough journey opportunity to entice people to the service and unlock the benefits of a quicker/easier journey and the marginal costs associated with providing such a service are reasonably high.

I'd suggest there is a case for a direct service from the ECML to Glasgow on a regular basis. Specifically thinking not just about Glasgow itself, but the broader Ayrshire and South Clyde journey opportunities offered with a simple, single connection at Glasgow Central (specifically mitigating the need to walk across Glasgow with any luggage etc, due to the journey time implications of routing directly Edinburgh to Central vs Queen Street).

None the less, I think theres quite broad agreement that these benefits cannot be achieved by a single journey per day.

As an aside, I find it quite interesting that the argument never seems to be spun the otherway; no one ever seems to suggests Edinburgh should be strictly the remit of ECML services in quite the way people do Glasgow and the WCML.

 

[A S Leib]

As an aside, I find it quite interesting that the argument never seems to be spun the otherway; no one ever seems to suggests Edinburgh should be strictly the remit of ECML services in quite the way people do Glasgow and the WCML.

That isn't massively surprising when Edinburgh and Glasgow are similar distances from Carlisle whilst all trains from the ECML to Glasgow go via Edinburgh. Liverpool, Manchester, Preston, Penrith and Euston have ~200,000 journeys to / from Edinburgh per year, compared to fewer than 80,000 for Glasgow Central and Queen Street to / from Newcastle, York, Leeds and King's Cross (excluding those splitting tickets at Edinburgh, I'd presume).