LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[yorkie]

The second and more-difficult-to-address problem is that you just won't be able to get these tickets if all the seats in the train are booked, even if you're willing to stand. I'm not always able to make plans with multiple days of notice, and if I have to get the train at short notice then even standing for 4 hours would be preferable to not getting home at all, only now it will be literally unaffordable. I'm aware that Virgin EC and subsequently LNER have had a bee in their bonnet about people standing ever since Corbyn did that attempted hatchet-job, but having been in a shouting match is really not sufficient reason to effectively break the relationship the railway has with a large proportion of its users.

True. If you book at short notice Newcastle to London after a Newcastle United fixture, you will find there would certainly be no reservations to Durham/Darlington, so you'd need an Anytime ticket.

LNER would of course want you to pay nearly £200 but the forum's site would only sell the Anytime fare for the part of the journey for which there were no Advances. They'd probably be available from York, if not Darlo.

People accept awkward fare structures for flying because it's so fast. But the car competes with most rail journeys, and as such you need to offer that flexibility else a lot of people will just drive. A new EV is looking very attractive at the moment.

True but LNER know that at busy times, even if many people do go by car, there will still be many people prepared to pay £hundreds to travel by train for the "freedom" to be able to watch Youtube etc #


If Newcastle are at home to Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea etc then they want people to be paying £195ish rather than £85ish, and if a few hundred people drive down the A1 then they'd consider that job done. Even if they get half the customers, they are still quids in!

 

[mad_rich]

It doesn't appear to be a fixed £20 supplement to the Advance fare, as claimed by David Horne of LNER.

These fares are for London-Newcastle on 22 Feb.



A screenshot of a price grid showing 4 LNER trains and the prices available on them. For one train, the Semi-flexible price is £20 higher than the Advance. For two trains, it's £26.50 higher than the Advance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know - at present do LNER offer Advances for the full seated capacity of the train (plus possibly some counted places) or is there a cut off? This should give an idea of just how many might be forced to pay the outrageous Anytime fare.

 

[stephy]

Explain why you can't get one of the tickets even if you're willing to stand? I didn't think reservations were actually compulsory?

 

[CyrusWuff]

So what are the implications for PRIV travel? £75 each way vs £30 for an advance with railcard? Replicate this everywhere and it becomes a bit of a naff perk.

One tier of Flex and one of Advance in each class will allow Priv discounts on the flows involved in the trial. Relevant ticket types are DMP/BUS in Standard and DNR/OES in First Class.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Explain why you can't get one of the tickets even if you're willing to stand? I didn't think reservations were actually compulsory?

Because they are Advances which are only sold with a reservation. Though LNER could oversell them with counted places I am not sure they actually will.

 

[yorkie]

Explain why you can't get one of the tickets even if you're willing to stand? I didn't think reservations were actually compulsory?

You can't buy an Advance or Flex ticket without a reservation.

The Flex ticket can be for a different train (providing it's got availability) to the one you want.

It doesn't appear to be a fixed £20 supplement to the Advance fare, as claimed by David Horne of LNER.

These fares are for London-Newcastle on 22 Feb.

View attachment 150564

A screenshot of a price grid showing 4 LNER trains and the prices available on them. For one train, the Semi-flexible price is £20 higher than the Advance. For two trains, it's £26.50 higher than the Advance.

Interesting, thanks for finding. I wonder what their excuse for that would be?

 

[stephy]

So this is another change, then. As currently, you can buy a ticket and not actually reserve a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this was just about not overfilling trains, I'd rather they made reservations actually compulsory so it was first come first served on a given train but didn't make the fare increases.

That they haven't explains clearly that the fare increases are the basis of it.

 

[James90012]

The biggest issue with this in my opinion is the notion that the Anytime Fare is an acceptable fare level in the first place, and applying it as the de facto fare cap across every day of the week without regulation is hugely concerning.

The only reason this exists is to increase revenue from increasing average yield. I don't buy the points made earlier that it will somehow lead to a revelation in last minute, seat filling fares. TOCs have had that option available to them for decades - it's called an Advance fare.

 

[Mikw]

You know the way it goes these days. If enough people scream "reform" then the powers that be will look at it as an excuse to raise more money.
As long as they say "Simplified" or "Improved" often enough they'll get away with it.

 

[redreni]

You know the way it goes these days. If enough people scream "reform" then the powers that be will look at it as an excuse to raise more money.
As long as they say "Simplified" or "Improved" often enough they'll get away with it.

I've been saying this for some time.

Simplification sounds good in principle, but the major issues on our railways are lack of capacity and high fares, not complexity. And as you say, the reforms you get under the guise of simplification rarely make things any simpler in any case, except perhaps in the sense that a of leisure travellers will come to understand that trains cost an arm and a leg and it's invariably better to drive. That message, at least, is quite simple.

 

[Mikw]

I've been saying this for some time.

Simplification sounds good in principle, but the major issues on our railways are lack of capacity and high fares, not complexity. And as you say, the reforms you get under the guise of simplification rarely make things any simpler in any case, except perhaps in the sense that a of leisure travellers will come to understand that trains cost an arm and a leg and it's invariably better to drive. That message, at least, is quite simple.

Indeed.
I'm really not in favour of anything that makes travel unaffordable. I see travel as a right, and a hard earned one. It wasn't that long ago when people lived next door to their factory and days out were only ever to the local park, with one holiday a year almost always to the same resort.
Our lives are made better by meeting others and visiting places further afield. Yes, railways are already pricing out some people, unless you really know what you are doing, or use a splitting site. Any change that's designed to price out even more people is really an assault on the right to travel - it should be resisted - but many will only see the words "Simplified" and "Freedom" and not enough opposition will be there to stop it, until it's too late.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Not sure if this has already been brought up; sorry I don't have time to read all 8 pages of this thread so far, but:
This also impacts customers who make an honest mistake with their ticket. Or those who may have been booked on Lumo/Grand Central/Hull Trains etc. but decide to take LNER due to cancellation etc.
Right now LNER charges a full anytime single fare if someone has not got the right ticket, but staff can use the discretion to charge a super off peak instead. No super off peak = no discretion.


The PRIV discount can also be used to make the "70-min flex" tickets seem more popular than they actually are.

Currently a super off peak ticket is cheapest for PRIV holders.
In a few weeks, the 70 min flex will be the cheapest ticket as PRIV can't be used on normal advance tickets, only the 70 min flex ones.
So PRIV holders will buy a 70 min flex as it's the cheapest. Therefore making the 70 min flex seem more popular than it actually is.

Yes Priv is now available on normal Advance, the £83.70 fare from KGX to EDB is eligible for Priv discount

 

[GoneSouth]

Slippery slope, there wouldn't be enough price gouging for just those routes, so expect it to be rolled out across the IC sector.

This is such a terrible idea and depressing for the future of our railway. You can’t expect people to shell out 200 quid for a walk up fare, on a weekend or on a bank holiday etc. If I’m forced to inflexible travel on this route, I’m flying which is faster and cheaper.

As for rolling this out in the entire IC network, how would this approach work with connecting services that cause you delays and thus you have to travel outside your 70 minute window. Jesus, this makes it more complicated (and stressful) not less.

I use GWR from Bristol to London at weekends with family. If we have to pay walk up anytime fares for all of us because of this then honestly I’d rather use a private hire car. It would cost less and we all have a seat together.

As for rolling this out across XC, it’s basically just going to be an anytime fare for all in future as they just don’t have advance tickets in the same way that LNER do. Even if they did, my understanding is that the 70 minute nonsense is based on an advanced fare plus 20 quid each person, each way. So quite a price hike on return tickets for a family of 4!

Having checked LNER earlier, the plethora of 70 minute fares available was most definitely NOT simpler than one choice of off peak fare. What’s so difficult about

• Anytime (unaffordable) tickets
• Off peak more affordable but can’t be used during morning and evening peak (can upgrade to peak if necessary at no additional cost)
• Advance, affordable inflexible and limited numbers.

Looks simple enough to me

 

[mad_rich]

Interesting, thanks for finding. I wonder what their excuse for that would be?

I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it’s hard to see how a £20 fixed supplement can end up being something other than £20 if not for nefarious reasons.

Especially when the train it’s on sale for is on the shoulder of peak.

One should be able to buy a Flex70 fare on the 1530 departure for £86.20 and use it at 1630.

This would be a genuine benefit, so it’s tempting to say they’ve rigged the prices?!

 

[D6700]

From the staff briefing document priv rate is available on the advance prices on these journeys.

Looking at the RST site, it would appear there continues to be no Priv discounts for non-flexible Advance fares - with only the heavily restricted 70 minute flex tickets having a Priv version - and at significantly less discount than the usual 75% off.

Taking London to Newcastle as an example, currently, a Priv Super Off Peak Single costs £20.95 and is fully flexible within the applicable time constraints in terms of both time of travel and operators you can use.

Once this punitive regime kicks in, a Priv 70min Flex Single costs £25.10. This is a 20% fare rise - and restricts you time-wise and prevents you from using any other operator. I suspect this £25.10 fare is quota controlled, too, as there is also a £29.90 Priv 70 min Flex Single showing for travel on the same trains! If this needs to be used, it will become a 43% fare rise for what is clearly a vastly inferior product. If you need flexibility by time or operators used, you would require a Priv Anytime Single at £48.20, which would be an almighty 130% rise in the fare payable!

In relation to public fares, currently, Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets effectively act as caps on Advance fares for much of the time. When Anytime tickets become the only flexible product, that cap will be massively raised. I have absolutely no doubt that, very quickly, we will see some Advance tickets costing far more than current flexible tickets.

It is abundantly clear this is being introduced purely as a mechanism to raise fares significantly. After all, they already have the ability to charge lower fares at times of low demand.

When LNER introduced single leg pricing, they added in a secret 4% fares rise that yielded no negative publicity in the general media, because no individual fare actually went up - it was just that the price you had to pay rose by 4% on top of the earlier annual fares rise! This time, the secret fare rise is truly abhorrent. Currently, to travel flexibly off peak from London to Newcastle costs the general public £83.80 for a Super Off Peak Single. To travel flexibly off peak from London to Newcastle after this regime kicks in will cost £192.80 in each direction. As per the Priv example earlier, this is an increase in the fare payable of 130% - and, once again, that is without actually putting any fares up! Many will be oblivious to such sharp practice, especially the large proportion of the general media that merely regurgitate press releases.

It is said the devil is in the detail - and I strongly feel this scheme is the work of the devil!

The architects of this scheme should be thoroughly ashamed of what they are doing, but, perversely, I expect they are actually quite proud of themselves.

 

[yorkie]

You know the way it goes these days. If enough people scream "reform" then the powers that be will look at it as an excuse to raise more money.
As long as they say "Simplified" or "Improved" often enough they'll get away with it.

Absolutely true. Get yourself to a forum meet, so I can buy you a drink!

Looking at the RST site, it would appear there continues to be no Priv discounts for non-flexible Advance fares - with only the heavily restricted 70 minute flex tickets having a Priv version - and at significantly less discount than the usual 75% off.

Taking London to Newcastle as an example, currently, a Priv Super Off Peak Single costs £20.95 and is fully flexible within the applicable time constraints in terms of both time of travel and operators you can use.

Once this punitive regime kicks in, a Priv 70min Flex Single costs £25.10. This is a 20% fare rise - and restricts you time-wise and prevents you from using any other operator. I suspect this £25.10 fare is quota controlled, too, as there is also a £29.90 Priv 70 min Flex Single showing for travel on the same trains! If this needs to be used, it will become a 43% fare rise for what is clearly a vastly inferior product. If you need flexibility by time or operators used, you would require a Priv Anytime Single at £48.20, which would be an almighty 130% rise in the fare payable!

In relation to public fares, currently, Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets effectively act as caps on Advance fares for much of the time. When Anytime tickets become the only flexible product, that cap will be massively raised. I have absolutely no doubt that, very quickly, we will see some Advance tickets costing far more than current flexible tickets.

It is abundantly clear this is being introduced purely as a mechanism to raise fares significantly. After all, they already have the ability to charge lower fares at times of low demand.

When LNER introduced single leg pricing, they added in a secret 4% fares rise that yielded no negative publicity in the general media, because no individual fare actually went up - it was just that the price you had to pay rose by 4% on top of the earlier annual fares rise! This time, the secret fare rise is truly abhorrent. Currently, to travel flexibly off peak from London to Newcastle costs the general public £83.80 for a Super Off Peak Single. To travel flexibly off peak from London to Newcastle after this regime kicks in will cost £192.80 in each direction. As per the Priv example earlier, this is an increase in the fare payable of 130% - and, once again, that is without actually putting any fares up! Many will be oblivious to such sharp practice, especially the large proportion of the general media that merely regurgitate press releases.

It is said the devil is in the detail - and I strongly feel this scheme is the work of the devil!

The architects of this scheme should be thoroughly ashamed of what they are doing, but, perversely, I expect they are actually quite proud of themselves.

I must admit I've rambled a bit in this thread, but this was very succinct, well constructed and includes many of the concerns I share, as well as providing a useful insight regarding the PRIV rate, which I wasn't aware of. Thanks for posting this.

I'm sure it will be a matter of discussion when we meet tomorrow!

I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it’s hard to see how a £20 fixed supplement can end up being something other than £20 if not for nefarious reasons.

I guess it depends on the technical implementation, but clearly there is something going on that is not consistent with what they have said, so that is a cause for concern. Again, thanks for finding this.

One should be able to buy a Flex70 fare on the 1530 departure for £86.20 and use it at 1630.

This would be a genuine benefit, so it’s rebooting to say they’ve rigged the prices?!

I suspect they are well aware that people are going to deliberately book the 'wrong' train, at Flex rate, where this is cheaper than the regular Advance fare, for an expensive train, and are indeed introducing restrictions to rig the system to reduce it. I suspect the one found by @Watershed is merely an example of one they haven't yet spotted, while the one you found could be one they did think of.

I don't really see how anyone can support what LNER have actually done here; even if anyone is broadly supportive of what they have claimed, and/or simply believed what LNER have said on the matter, when looking at the implementation and seeing the concerns expressed here, I certainly hope those people should be having second thoughts?

 

[Dan G]

People accept awkward fare structures for flying because it's so fast. But the car competes with most rail journeys, and as such you need to offer that flexibility else a lot of people will just drive. A new EV is looking very attractive at the moment.

What awkward fare structure for flying? You look to see what times available on the dates you want to travel, how much they are, and you make your choice. Same as Advance.

Removing off-peak tickets perhaps reflects that long-distance load factors not varying as much as they did pre-covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What awkward fare structure for flying? You look to see what times available on the dates you want to travel, how much they are, and you make your choice. Same as Advance.

You've seen Ryanair's table of fees, right?

Removing off-peak tickets perhaps reflects that long-distance load factors not varying as much as they did pre-covid.

Only if Anytime was substantially reduced.

 

[yorkie]

What awkward fare structure for flying? You look to see what times available on the dates you want to travel, how much they are, and you make your choice. Same as Advance.

It's not quite so simple, but a detailed comparison would be best done in a separate thread (if either of you would like to create one, feel free)

 

[D6700]

Yes Priv is now available on normal Advance, the £83.70 fare from KGX to EDB is eligible for Priv discount

The RST site doesn't seem to be allowing that, but a completely inflexible Advance for that fare would be either £20.90 or £20.95 at Priv rate, compared with the currently available flexible Super Off Peak Single at £21.75. Nobody in their right mind would deliberately opt for that Advance to save 80p. Obviously, by putting up the flexible fare from £87 to £193.90 overnight, a lot more will be pushed into using Advances, even though they may not wish to...

 

[GoneSouth]

Indeed. Will it grow the market though.

No, it will not, the opposite I imagine

It's not a good thing if it comes out of my pocket when I want to travel, no.

Spot on. Can barely afford it now so would definitely have to reduce the number of journeys if this nonsense gets rolled out everywhere.

 

[NARobertson]

Most people will suspect this change to the fare system is just a ploy to increase prices. But it could be just another nail in the railway's coffin. Along with the breakdowns due to high winds, overheated points, signals failures etc, the trains that do not run because of lack of staff, engineering works and never ending strikes. It is true the German railways do operate a system of individual train pricing but as far as I know that did not lead to a scrapping of relatively low prices on some trains. Perhaps if enough people complain about it the whole idea will be scrapped just like the scheme to close all railway ticket offices.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Yet another anti-passenger move in a game where antipassenger moves seemed to be the winners time and time again. No wonder I have fallen out of love with most of the railway these days

Now if you're please excuse me, I have to go and speak to my nice friends at easyJet about any travel plans I might have this year

 

[GoneSouth]

Yet another anti-passenger move in a game where antipassenger moves seemed to be the winners time and time again. No wonder I have fallen out of love with most of the railway these days

Now if you're please excuse me, I have to go and speak to my nice friends at easyJet about any travel plans I might have this year

I wish it were just a case of loving (or not) the railway. For some it’s an essential, one which they may no longer be able to afford to use if this BS is rolled out.

Being able to travel without a car is going to become very difficult in future in the UK if we let these short sighted lunatics continue to run things.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Tomorrow isn't last minute. Traditionally Advances (if any left) were available until 2359 the day before.

Last minute is turning up at the airport because you've just been bereaved or you've missed your flight, analogous to buying a walk up at the station or on your phone on the bus there. It'll be three figures then. Traditionally years ago all on the day Ryanair fares were £299, but I suspect they can go higher than that now.

In fairness, that flight has risen to a whopping £99. Still cheaper than a LNER anytime…

But my point remains - for long distance travel, tomorrow is relatively last minute. I’d be happy if the fare went up on the day before to the same as the off peak return providing I was guaranteed a seat (which LNER do, iirc)

Considering only 1/9 of passengers used off peak tickets anyway, it’s fair to say that there’s room to innovate without annoying too many people.

 

[johntea]

Am I understanding correctly in (theoretical at the moment as not one of the 'trial' routes) that a one way off peak single flexible Leeds to London trip on LNER would literally shoot up from £67.00 to...£160.30

At those sort of prices I'll end up paying a tenner to National Express instead who will take a couple of hours longer to get me there but then I can spend the savings on a night in The Ritz!

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Good morning people, I woke up this morning to notice that LNER were withdrawing off-peak tickets, I’m assuming advance singles are not a part of this so can travel with one after the 5th of feb in formerly off-peak times (not an off peak ticket, an advance) and it won’t be invalid (Ticket type attached…)

 

[birchesgreen]

Only the British could come up with such a banal and laughable term as "semi-flexible".