LNER unreliability caused by staff shortages

[800001]

80x units have a 36 hour limit to the amount of time they can spend away from depot. Stabling a set in Waverley overnight would prevent it from running a full day's diagram either the day before or after stabling. The only LNER diagram that doesn't visit a depot or other servicing facilities at some point during the night is booked Mark 4s partly because of this.

80x have 48 hour limit, the issue at Waverley is nearly all through platforms are used by sleepers over night, and depending what ScotRail have in station it limits platform availability. This only leaves platform 5/6 available, even then at times I’ve seen sleeper loco and single coach in there overnight.
99% of the time it is possible to stable, but very occasionally it is declined.

 

[DanNCL]

80x have 48 hour limit, the issue at Waverley is nearly all through platforms are used by sleepers over night, and depending what ScotRail have in station it limits platform availability. This only leaves platform 5/6 available, even then at times I’ve seen sleeper loco and single coach in there overnight.
99% of the time it is possible to stable, but very occasionally it is declined.

It was 36, when did it change to 48?

 

[800001]

It was 36, when did it change to 48?

Has been 48 for several months.
Still contractually 36 I think, as FTR still sows 36, but if LNER deem fit to use the train longer than that, ie out stable overnight, they can just go ahead and do it now of there own accord.

 

[Falcon1200]

Thanks all for the clarifications on stabling and contractual arrangements.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks all for the clarifications on stabling and contractual arrangements.

There's no real technical reason for it. Virtually every other class of unit in the country can outstable just fine. It's just something that Hitachi/Agility put in the contract and that nobody at the DfT thought to challenge. I wonder how much money changed hands to 'ease' the 36 hours to 48...

 

[Dave91131]

Some part cancellations showing for tomorrow (Sunday):

0947 ex Aberdeen starting at Edinburgh.
1100 ex Edinburgh starting at Newcastle.

 

[800001]

Some part cancellations showing for tomorrow (Sunday):

0947 ex Aberdeen starting at Edinburgh.
1100 ex Edinburgh starting at Newcastle.

The Aberdeen is due to the strike no one obviously went up today so no crew lodged over, service on Friday terminated at Edinburgh with the set going onto Craigentinny.

 

[43094]

Both those are actually due to the driver shortages on Friday.

The Aberdeen finishers only got as far as Edinburgh, and so two extra sets went on to Craigentinny. In turn one of the booked Craigentinny arrivals was diverted to finish at Heaton.

As things stand, they’re the only two planned alterations for Sunday (subject to change if required at short notice, etc)

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder how much money changed hands to 'ease' the 36 hours to 48...

No idea, but I wonder if it was part of a wider deal concerning the prolonged absence of trains due to cracking.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It was. 36 hours is seriously restrictive and leads to some intricate diagramming to meet the equally restrictive maintenance requirements, which are specified by type, by depot and by duration.

 

[800001]

It was. 36 hours is seriously restrictive and leads to some intricate diagramming to meet the equally restrictive maintenance requirements, which are specified by type, by depot and by duration.

The diagrams are still all based around a 36 hour fitness to run certificate.

Allowing a unit to be out in service for up to 48 hours is still very much the exception to the rule, and is only used dusting disruption periods.

 

[Dave91131]

Cancellations already in for tomorrow;

0936 1536 and 1736 Harrogate to London throughout.

1333 London to Harrogate throughout.

1400 London to Aberdeen running to Edinburgh only.

0648 ex Glasgow cancelled south of Newcastle with the following 0830 ex Edinburgh only picking up a couple of additional stops in lieu.

1530 London - Glasgow cancelled throughout.

1803 London - Skipton and 2003 London - Leeds cancelled north of Doncaster.

Time for a reduced, emergency timetable immediately.

 

[800001]

Cancellations already in for tomorrow;

0936 1536 and 1736 Harrogate to London throughout.

1333 London to Harrogate throughout.

1400 London to Aberdeen running to Edinburgh only.

0648 ex Glasgow cancelled south of Newcastle with the following 0830 ex Edinburgh only picking up a couple of additional stops in lieu.

1530 London - Glasgow cancelled throughout.

1803 London - Skipton and 2003 London - Leeds cancelled north of Doncaster.

Time for a reduced, emergency timetable immediately.

Having an emergency timetable will not help at all.

Different diagrams each day remain uncovered, wether that is due to sickness or leave.

It may look like it’s same trains each day that are affected, but by putting an emergency timetable in, you still have diagrams uncovered.

Look at Avanti, put an emergency timetable of 4 trains per hour out of London, and still they couldn’t cover them as each day staffing levels are different.

Trust me, conversations have been had regarding removing certain services over a set period, but it just does not work.

 

[Bungle73]

Can’t they just sort out whatever issue they are having with their staff? I guess that would be far too easy .

 

[800001]

Can’t they just sort out whatever issue they are having with their staff? I guess that would be far too easy .

As you will know, LNER can not ‘sort out’ with out the consent of the DFT.

We all know how that is going!

 

[Peterthegreat]

Having an emergency timetable will not help at all.

Different diagrams each day remain uncovered, wether that is due to sickness or leave.

It may look like it’s same trains each day that are affected, but by putting an emergency timetable in, you still have diagrams uncovered.

Look at Avanti, put an emergency timetable of 4 trains per hour out of London, and still they couldn’t cover them as each day staffing levels are different.

Trust me, conversations have been had regarding removing certain services over a set period, but it just does not work.

Absolutely. Northern withdrew some services in January. There was no noticable difference in cancellation levels and when cancellations were made it often created (very) large gaps in the service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Time for a reduced, emergency timetable immediately.

5 cancelled throughout, and another 4 part cancelled.

compared to an emergency timetable, with emergency rosters, which would see at least 30% and probably half, of the service cancelled. Be careful what you wish for.

Can’t they just sort out whatever issue they are having with their staff? I guess that would be far too easy .

What is the issue?

 

[CC 72100]

5 cancelled throughout, and another 4 part cancelled.

compared to an emergency timetable, with emergency rosters, which would see at least 30% and probably half, of the service cancelled. Be careful what you wish for.

Indeed, that doesn't seem too bad in the grand scheme of things.

An 'emergency timetable' is all well and good but surely depends on the ability within the rostering agreement to implement it. Also the cancelled and amended turns agreement may be relatively restrictive so doesn't suddenly make all the crew more flexible to cover the trains you want with a click of a switch.

Extremities are perhaps always going to be more vulnerable but that doesn't strike me as systematic shortages across the board.

From the outside looking in that's not near crisis point. Far from it.

 

[kez19]

I was caught out initially on Friday (25 November), I was booked on the Edinburgh bound from Newcastle at 1052 LNER, I only noticed the train been cancelled via app in the morning but managed to get the 0847 from Newcastle instead.

The only thing I would say is when I used the app that morning it seemed to give conflicting information as it said that my connecting train was also off then few minutes later going back in was on (it at the time at first glance had an underscore on all stops on the connection at Edinburgh to then change back to normal)

 

[800001]

I was caught out initially on Friday (25 November), I was booked on the Edinburgh bound from Newcastle at 1052 LNER, I only noticed the train been cancelled via app in the morning but managed to get the 0847 from Newcastle instead.

The only thing I would say is when I used the app that morning it seemed to give conflicting information as it said that my connecting train was also off then few minutes later going back in was on (it at the time at first glance had an underscore on all stops on the connection at Edinburgh to then change back to normal)

Do you have notifications set to receive updates on your bookings?

As if you do, you should have received an email and app notification regarding the cancellation.

 

[Dave91131]

Further to the cancellations listed in post #402, we can add in;.

0548 ex Edinburgh cancelled south of Newcastle.

0800 London - Edinburgh cancelled between London and Doncaster.

0806 London - Lincoln and 1127 return cancelled throughout.

Whilst I acknowledge the responses of other members to post #402 regarding an emergency timetable not being the answer and things not seeming "too bad in the grand scheme of things", the reality is if this really is the best that can be done on a day to day basis on arguably the country's biggest flagship and most prestigious line then it really is a sham, a disgrace, insert any adjective of choice, and time to admit reductions to the timetable are required. The current timetable can't be resourced. Full stop. So time to try to run one that can be, at least more so than the current one.

As has been posted by myself and others many times across various threads, Joe Public couldn't care less about RDW agreements, overtime bans, rosters etc. They just want their train to turn up when it should, take them where it should, and for their seat to be available - for seats, see yesterday's 0900 London - Aberdeen reviews on social media to get a feel for the contempt passengers have for LNER at present.

It doesn't take a mathematician to work out tens of thousands of passengers each day are having their plans torn to shreds by LNER being incapable of running trains for which they have happily sold tickets - is there any data available to indicate how many tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds they are paying out each day in refunds for non existent trains, delay repay claims etc?

 

[kez19]

Do you have notifications set to receive updates on your bookings?

As if you do, you should have received an email and app notification regarding the cancellation.

On this occasion I didn’t receive any, it wasn’t until I was in the app (at 6am that morning), it said and advised me to book an earlier one, on the flipside I did get notified of my train leaving Edinburgh (last Monday) being delayed by 1 minute as I was onboard though.

 

[Sleepy]

I agree adhoc daily cancellations are annoying but Sunday was always going to be grim for overcrowding when industry advice was not to travel on the Saturday due to the driver strike. Will be interesting to see what percentage of trains LNER cancel for rest of the week, I gather from an earlier post driver managers can/are being used ?

 

[Bungle73]

Further to the cancellations listed in post #402, we can add in;.

0548 ex Edinburgh cancelled south of Newcastle.

0800 London - Edinburgh cancelled between London and Doncaster.

0806 London - Lincoln and 1127 return cancelled throughout.

Whilst I acknowledge the responses of other members to post #402 regarding an emergency timetable not being the answer and things not seeming "too bad in the grand scheme of things", the reality is if this really is the best that can be done on a day to day basis on arguably the country's biggest flagship and most prestigious line then it really is a sham, a disgrace, insert any adjective of choice, and time to admit reductions to the timetable are required. The current timetable can't be resourced. Full stop. So time to try to run one that can be, at least more so than the current one.

As has been posted by myself and others many times across various threads, Joe Public couldn't care less about RDW agreements, overtime bans, rosters etc. They just want their train to turn up when it should, take them where it should, and for their seat to be available - for seats, see yesterday's 0900 London - Aberdeen reviews on social media to get a feel for the contempt passengers have for LNER at present.

It doesn't take a mathematician to work out tens of thousands of passengers each day are having their plans torn to shreds by LNER being incapable of running trains for which they have happily sold tickets - is there any data available to indicate how many tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds they are paying out each day in refunds for non existent trains, delay repay claims etc?

0800 (which is the train I'm catching next week as it happens) isn't staff related though, it's a "train faut"....whatever that means.

 

[800001]

I agree adhoc daily cancellations are annoying but Sunday was always going to be grim for overcrowding when industry advice was not to travel on the Saturday due to the driver strike. Will be interesting to see what percentage of trains LNER cancel for rest of the week, I gather from an earlier post driver managers can/are being used ?

Driver managers have been used daily for weeks, there is only so much they can do

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Of course if LNER was a private operator they would have weighed up the reputational cost to the bottom line of disruption and made an appropriate offer to the unions to avoid the situation arriving. Now we have all operators with their hands tied behind their backs causing disruption across the board might not matter to DfT on low income routes vs cost of paying overtime / rdw payments but on LNER it will hurt.

I can see no end to this as unions have staff support to dig in and government are not going to give way over 100k railway staff when faced with millions in other public sectors who will want the same.

 

[DanNCL]

For the rostering reasons mentioned earlier an emergency timetable wouldn't help if implemented now. But I don't see how it wouldn't work in the medium term, if future rosters were planned around a reasonable estimate of how many staff will be available and at what times each day. Nothing to stop the removed services from being changed to unadvertised rather than entirely removed, to allow them to run as 'extras' when the staff are available to run them.

 

[800001]

For the rostering reasons mentioned earlier an emergency timetable wouldn't help if implemented now. But I don't see how it wouldn't work in the medium term, if future rosters were planned around a reasonable estimate of how many staff will be available and at what times each day. Nothing to stop the removed services from being changed to unadvertised rather than entirely removed, to allow them to run as 'extras' when the staff are available to run them.

Not as easy to run ‘extras’ if removed from timetable, as the set diagrams would be designed around the contingent Timetable.

 

[Dave91131]

Other cancellations to have appeared since this morning are the 1300 London - Edinburgh south of Newcastle, and the 1727 Lincoln - London throughout.

Tomorrow's will be rolling in soon too.

 

[T T]

Unfortunately these cancellations may start to get worse now the drivers have balloted to stop rest day work, a lot of depots were heavily reliant on this to cover jobs