LNW Trent Valley services

[Bletchleyite]

And there's a market for those who don't want to pay those fares, so the DfT should either remove the bargain Birmingham £19 fares or run a service to cater for them.

Yes. That market is offered a cheaper but slower service. Which is reasonable.

 

[Russel]

the worst thing was the sitting at Northampton for 10/15 minutes to make the timetable work. Maddening!

Yes, I remember the long waits there, it made it quite an unpleasant journey, even considering the bargain fares.

But it may not be for those wanting to travel to or from Northampton.......

So, continue to call at an out of the way station, extending the journey time, for passengers who have other options? No, the service is much better without the Northampton call.

Most of the Northampton passengers were traveling to or from Euston.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

These services have been a great success. Starting as 4 car flyers they quite quickly moved to 8 cars and to hear they are going to 12 is fantastic. It is also wonderful they miss out the dullardy of Northampton and speed up the fast line.

2tph Crewe to Euston would be preferable to the 12 car working.

Ideally 1 of those being Liverpool-Runcorn-Hartford-Crewe.

I don't think any guard is looking forward to working 12 cars on the Trent

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think any guard is looking forward to working 12 cars on the Trent

the passengers are!

Poor use of units running 12 to Crewe. No need north of Rugby. I'm guessing they are looking at (the mega, ultra supa-dupa-reliable) ASDO for this.

The overloaded section is Rugby to Euston, as passengers are getting off the slow Birmingham - Londons.

not sure i agree - the numbers changing at Tamworth has really increased. There used to be 3 or 4 now there is a platform worth!

That is because its effectively two services bolted together, file under Avanti Scotland services via Brum etc..

absolutly - it was just interminable

 

[SCDR_WMR]

the passengers are!


not sure i agree - the numbers changing at Tamworth has really increased. There used to be 3 or 4 now there is a platform worth!

absolutly - it was just interminable

But would passenger's prefer a half hourly service which would give the capacity increase also? The timings will take a battering on 12 cars, so it will be a slightly slower service than current.

Agree that Tamworth and Lichfield numbers have risen quite a bit in the last 18 months or so. Depending on the train, can have more change there than MK or Rugby (especially take out the New St passengers)

 

[The Planner]

But would passenger's prefer a half hourly service which would give the capacity increase also? The timings will take a battering on 12 cars, so it will be a slightly slower service than current.

Agree that Tamworth and Lichfield numbers have risen quite a bit in the last 18 months or so. Depending on the train, can have more change there than MK or Rugby (especially take out the New St passengers)

Presumably an increase in dwell, as I can't see any other reaaon why they would be slower.

 

[richardderby]

I can get from Euston to Derby in 1 hr 50 for around half the price of EMR and the southbound connection via Tamworth is the same 1hr 50 since the timetable change. The fact most EMR services are 5 car crowded units is also something to avoid..

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Presumably an increase in dwell, as I can't see any other reaaon why they would be slower.

Yes, time would be lost if not planned for at most of the stations north of Rugby. Plus the 2 UDS stations

 

[Pumbaa]

2tph Crewe to Euston would be preferable to the 12 car working.

Ideally 1 of those being Liverpool-Runcorn-Hartford-Crewe.

I don't think any guard is looking forward to working 12 cars on the Trent

But thats not achievable as no capacity, so what’s the alternative? As I recall, weekend Trent Valley services are among the most overcrowded in DfT franchised TOC land so this is entirely unsurprising.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But thats not achievable as no capacity, so what’s the alternative? As I recall, weekend Trent Valley services are among the most overcrowded in DfT franchised TOC land so this is entirely unsurprising.

Of course one key reason for this is Avanti being too expensive...so does DfT have the guts to fix the actual problem?

(Answer: no, of course not)

 

[Pumbaa]

Poor use of units running 12 to Crewe. No need north of Rugby. I'm guessing they are looking at (the mega, ultra supa-dupa-reliable) ASDO for this.

The overloaded section is Rugby to Euston, as passengers are getting off the slow Birmingham - Londons.

Passenger numbers warrant one of the Birmingham Londons running fast from Rugby - MK - London missing out Northampton.

Northampton services need a full re-cast.

Both the Birmingham and Crewe fast services could be made permanently set down south / pick up north only at MK.

From the data in front of me, Tamworth is single biggest Ons/Off flow after MK. No reasonable alternative to join/detach, largely clean paths, seems optimum solution to me.

No ASDO, just UDS being used as intended. For anyone who bleats otherwise, SWR has used 4 from 12 quite happily since intro of 450s 20 years ago and not had an issue. I don’t see why this will be any different after a bedding in period.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No ASDO, just UDS being used as intended. For anyone who bleats otherwise, SWR has used 4 from 12 quite happily since intro of 450s 20 years ago and not had an issue. I don’t see why this will be any different after a bedding in period.

12 to 4 might not be done planned, but I've certainly seen it at both Bletchley P6 (very much a one off!) and at Bushey on the down fast.

It might result in a few people being overcarried, but as these are mostly "local stations for local people" they will learn and it won't happen again.

 

[Russel]

Which are the busiest services on a Saturday on the Trent Valley?

The morning journeys into London can be very busy and do need an extra 4 cars, but the return in the evenings never seem quite as full, I use the 18:46 or 19:46 on a Saturday evening around once a month and as long as you're willing to walk right to the front of the train at Euston, you'll usually get a seat. The rear set closest to the concourse is usually full and standing though.

 

[The Planner]

But thats not achievable as no capacity, so what’s the alternative? As I recall, weekend Trent Valley services are among the most overcrowded in DfT franchised TOC land so this is entirely unsurprising.

I reckon you might be able to sneak one in at xx.19 from Euston, behind the Edinburgh and in front of the Birmingham that crosses Ledburn. It would be very close to getting run down by the fast Glasgow by Rugby though, so performance nightmare.

 

[TheDavibob]

How much would the proposed (unless things have changed) fast service from Lichfield/Tamworth to Euston (the second Liverpool?) thin out passenger numbers on the remaining semi-fast? Certainly when I was in Lichfield I didn't use it to get to London because it was cheap/comfortable (though those helped), I used it because it existed.

 

[Kite159]

Of course one key reason for this is Avanti being too expensive...so does DfT have the guts to fix the actual problem?

(Answer: no, of course not)

The DfT will 'fix' the problem of Avanti being too expensive by doing away with the LNR only fares under the guise of simplification. Maybe with a "we will release more advance purchase fares" on certain trains which will cost more than the old flexible tickets.

 

[Pumbaa]

I reckon you might be able to sneak one in at xx.19 from Euston, behind the Edinburgh and in front of the Birmingham that crosses Ledburn. It would be very close to getting run down by the fast Glasgow by Rugby though, so performance nightmare.

Has to be xx20, the 16 calls at Watford. You’re out by a few minutes by Rugby, on a clean path you’d be in at xx16, the down Glasgow is through at xx17. Would get knocked at Stafford if you pathed it out.

From memory getting in and out at Attleborough and Stafford was what really kills it, you can weave enough at the south end but you couldn’t make it all line up to avoid costing too much time and resource.

 

[The Planner]

Has to be xx20, the 16 calls at Watford. You’re out by a few minutes by Rugby, on a clean path you’d be in at xx16, the down Glasgow is through at xx17. Would get knocked at Stafford if you pathed it out.

From memory getting in and out at Attleborough and Stafford was what really kills it, you can weave enough at the south end but you couldn’t make it all line up to avoid costing too much time and resource.

Its fine at Stafford as the class 9 is slow lines. The Manchester is right up its backside though.

 

[Starmill]

Yes. That market is offered a cheaper but slower service. Which is reasonable.

It's completely unreasonable. Loadings will max out at about 35% between Rugby and Crewe with twelve cars, which is enormously wasteful of very scarce rolling stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's completely unreasonable. Loadings will max out at about 35% between Rugby and Crewe with twelve cars, which is enormously wasteful of very scarce rolling stock.

110mph EMUs are anything but scarce.

 

[Starmill]

The DfT will 'fix' the problem of Avanti being too expensive by doing away with the LNR only fares under the guise of simplification. Maybe with a "we will release more advance purchase fares" on certain trains which will cost more than the old flexible tickets.

This would be bad for the end customer, but at least it would allow more sensible allocation of rolling stock than sending it all near-empty running between Rugby and Crewe.

110mph EMUs are anything but scarce.

Their lease costs suggest otherwise.

 

[Bald Rick]

I reckon you might be able to sneak one in at xx.19 from Euston, behind the Edinburgh and in front of the Birmingham that crosses Ledburn. It would be very close to getting run down by the fast Glasgow by Rugby though, so performance nightmare.

It would be run down by Rugby, not least because (as I’m sure you know) the SRTs for the xx46 are optimistic by a minute between Euston and MK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would be bad for the end customer, but at least it would allow more sensible allocation of rolling stock than sending it all near-empty running between Rugby and Crewe.

You have a very skewed impression of these services - in my experience loadings north of Rugby are good.

 

[Starmill]

You have a very skewed impression of these services - in my experience loadings north of Rugby are good.

I don't see how both can't be true. They're not bad, but they're only a bit over half. Will therefore drop significantly when you add 50% more capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see how both can't be true. They're not bad, but they're only a bit over half. Will therefore drop significantly when you add 50% more capacity.

In my experience they can be far busier than that by the time they get half way down the Trent. They're quiet on leaving Crewe, sure, but then Manchester-Londons are usually only about half full until Stockport.

Are you suggesting the 12 is only needed for MKC-Euston? As that's really not true. If it was they wouldn't commit all those units to 12-car on the whole thing, they'd run the peak extra fast Northampton all day and make the Trent service pick up/set down only at MKC.

 

[Starmill]

Are you suggesting the 12 is only needed for MKC-Euston? As that's really not true.

Not remotely. As has been explained above lots of the traffic is from the West Midlands, and is connecting at Rugby to save time (or going by road to Rugby when a West Midlands station would be closer).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not remotely. As has been explained above lots of the traffic is from the West Midlands, and is connecting at Rugby to save time (or going by road to Rugby when a West Midlands station would be closer).

Plenty board at Rugby but it's by no means the biggest traffic source in my experience. In my experience of the LNR Birminghams (which I use a fair bit) most people stay on board, hardly any change at Rugby for a faster run to Euston.

 

[Starmill]

Plenty board at Rugby but it's by no means the biggest traffic source in my experience. In my experience of the LNR Birminghams (which I use a fair bit) most people stay on board, hardly any change at Rugby for a faster run to Euston.

Then your experience is very much out of date I'm afraid. It wasn't such an issue when there were three from Birmingham, unfortunately it now is.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Not remotely. As has been explained above lots of the traffic is from the West Midlands, and is connecting at Rugby to save time (or going by road to Rugby when a West Midlands station would be closer).

In my experience (working at least 2-3 times a week), there's almost zero connecting at rugby from the WM. And that's going off ticket scanning not assumption.

It's the Northbound services that have the WM passenger's alighting at Rugby. Strip that away and it just makes services mid-heavy loading.

Busiest stations north of Rugby are Crewe, Tamworth and Litchfield TV. In that order regardless of day or time. Only really in the morning is Rugby busier than any of those.

 

[Starmill]

In my experience (working at least 2-3 times a week), there's almost zero connecting at rugby from the WM. And that's going off ticket scanning not assumption.

It's the Northbound services that have the WM passenger's alighting at Rugby. Strip that away and it just makes services mid-heavy loading.

Busiest stations north of Rugby are Crewe, Tamworth and Litchfield TV. In that order regardless of day or time. Only really in the morning is Rugby busier than any of those.

Well yes of course. As is almost always the case with British timetables, the connection is much more favourable in one direction than in the other, so that's what people are offered by their journey planner. As it happens there's no way to just strip it out unless you make the flexible tickets not valid, and then if you do that you may as well bin them entirely. But I didn't think it needed to be pointed out that the rolling stock has to cycle both ways even if the main benefit is only one way? Surely that goes without saying! Indeed this is one of the reasons why it's a rule in many countries that you strive for perfectly mirrored headways in opposite directions, which in general we don't have on our radar here.