LNWR Super Off-Peak

[Leisurefirst]

Hi there,
I just got "let off" having to pay an excess on a Super-Off Peak single from Stafford to Euston which was sold to me with an 18.32 departure time because the time was on the ticket.
Having just checked on their website it would appear it was perfectly valid anyway, arrival time 20.39.
However, can anybody make sense of their website?
So it's valid Monday to Saturday at these times and not for those arrivals yet it's valid all day at weekends...?

When are Super Off-Peak train times to and from London?
The below information applies to journeys between Northampton and London, as well as longer distance journeys marked as 'West Midlands Trains only' or WMR & LNR'.
Trains travelling to London Euston

• Valid Monday to Saturday for trains arriving at London Euston from 13:00.
• Not valid for trains arriving at London Euston between 16:00 and 19:00.
• This ticket is valid for travel all day on weekends and Bank Holidays.

 

[alex17595]

They are not valid to depart the origin on the ticket between 1559 and 1901 Monday to Saturday.

 

[Leisurefirst]

They are not valid to depart the origin on the ticket between 1559 and 1901 Monday to Saturday.

Sold to me by Trainsplit but also offered to me by their own website.
Also, how does that fit in with "This ticket is valid for travel all day on weekends and Bank Holidays."
It was leg three of a journey from Barrow-In-Furness to Euston starting at 14:47 and the NR website restrictions also state that "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time."
I did say it was part of a longer journey but they said it didn't matter.

 

[Benjwri]

The below information applies to journeys between Northampton and London, as well as longer distance journeys marked as 'West Midlands Trains only' or WMR & LNR'.
Trains travelling to London Euston

• Valid Monday to Saturday for trains arriving at London Euston from 13:00.
• Not valid for trains arriving at London Euston between 16:00 and 19:00.
• This ticket is valid for travel all day on weekends and Bank Holidays.

Where does this information come from? If you held a Stafford to London Super Off Peak return, it holds restriction LG, stating:

Notes​
Outward Travel & Return Travel​
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday Mondays-Saturdays (for Sundays and Bank Holidays, see 'Notes') ​
Not valid for travel on services timed to arrive London Terminals before 13:00. Not valid for travel on northbound services timed to depart any station before 10:30. Not valid for travel on services timed to depart the origin station on the ticket after 15:59 and before 19:01 in either direction. A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.
Break of journey is not permitted on the outward journey on any day except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities.

As you were departing between 15:59 and 19:01, the staff member was correct.

The restriction will always be listed on the ticket for future reference, it should say something like: 'See restrictions nre.co.uk/LG'

 

[CyrusWuff]

London Northwestern Super Off-Peaks have restrictions on Monday to Saturday, unlike most (all?) other companies.

In the case of a Stafford - London Single the relevant restriction code is LG, which states:

• Not valid for travel on services timed to arrive London Terminals before 13:00.
• Not valid for travel on northbound services timed to depart any station before 10:30.
• Not valid for travel on services timed to depart the origin station on the ticket after 15:59 and before 19:01 in either direction.
  
  A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

As such, it shouldn't have been sold for travel on the 18:32 departure.

However, if you look at the unpublished restrictions section on BRFares.com (which shows what journey planners use) it's actually coded as not being valid to depart between 17:51 and 18:19 on Saturdays

 

[Benjwri]

Also, how does that fit in with "This ticket is valid for travel all day on weekends and Bank Holidays."

I'm not sure where this quote comes from, so can't say without a link being provided.

Sold to me by Trainsplit but also offered to me by their own website.

When sold against an itinerary the ticket is valid regardless of the restrictions by virtue of Consumer Rights.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Where does this information come from? If you held a Stafford to London Super Off Peak return, it holds restriction LG, stating:

It's on the Off-Peak & Super Off-Peak tickets page on LNR's site, under "When are Super Off-Peak train times to and from London?"

 

[Leisurefirst]

It's offered on the 18:32 on their own website (check next Saturday).

 

[Haywain]

It was leg three of a journey from Barrow-In-Furness to Euston starting at 14:47 and the NR website restrictions also state that "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time."

The connections referred to are any that may be required after departure from the origin of that specific ticket. The fact that you were travelling from Barrow is not relevant to that restriction.

 

[30907]

It's on the Off-Peak & Super Off-Peak tickets page on LNR's site, under "When are Super Off-Peak train times to and from London?"

Where the 3rd bullet contradicts the other 2. It should presumably read "Sundays and holidays."

It's offered on the 18:32 on their own website (check next Saturday).

It's just possible that the computer version of the restrictions is intentional, though it probably should be1859.

BTW where are you allowed to depart from at 1650, 1750 and 1759?

 

[redreni]

The connections referred to are any that may be required after departure from the origin of that specific ticket. The fact that you were travelling from Barrow is not relevant to that restriction.

The restriction may be intended to mean that, but it doesn't say that.

The restriction itself makes it clear it is referring only to the origin on the ticket, not the origin of the passenger's journey (if different). But that then seems to be qualified by the bit the OP quoted, which (as drafted) refers specifically to the time (and, one can only assume, the station) where the journey began.

So in addition to sorting out the unpublished restrictions and the journey planner data so that journey planners know the restriction ends at 19:00 rather than 18:19, I would suggest the wording "a connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" should be deleted, since if it means what you say it means then it is redundant and confusing. The restriction already says it's when the passenger leaves the origin on the ticket. And if it means what it says, it sounds like it's not doing what was intended.

As you were departing between 15:59 and 19:01, the staff member was correct.

About the restriction, maybe. But the OP said the departure time was printed on the ticket, so it's not a cse of "I'll let you off this time" - the ticket was sold to the OP on the understanding he could travel on that train. If that was a mistake, it wasn't the OP's mistake. There's just no basis - assuming the information given us by the OP is right - for (as the OP mentioned) threatening to sting him for an excess. That's incorrect.

 

[Leisurefirst]

TBF "let off" were my words.
They made it clear they would honour it after I showed the departure time on the ticket but only because of that.

 

[Watershed]

TBF "let off" were my words.
They made it clear they would honour it after I showed the departure time on the ticket but only because of that.

In that case I think the guard acted broadly speaking correctly: they enforced the ticket restrictions as written, until you pointed out that the ticket had been sold in conjunction with the train you were on (because of the data not matching the restriction text).

The only bit that is a bit ambiguous is the "journeys begun at a valid time" sentence. I think it's intended to purely refer to the part of any journey made using this particular ticket, but evidently the person who wrote that didn't really consider what would happen if someone held a series of split tickets and this wasn't the first ticket.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

If some of the restrictions are unpublished how can the average passenger know about them? For example, how would you stand buying a super off peak return from a ticket machine or ticket office with no itinerary which requires a connecting service to the London North Western train such as from Burton on Trent?

 

[Watershed]

If some of the restrictions are unpublished how can the average passenger know about them? For example, how would you stand buying a super off peak return from a ticket machine or ticket office with no itinerary which requires a connecting service to the London North Western train such as from Burton on Trent?

Average passengers can't be expected to know about the electronic restrictions and indeed aren't, precisely because they're unpublished. They are only intended for the use of ticket retailing software, to determine the tickets offered for a given itinerary.

For example if you bought a Burton on Trent (BUT) to London Euston (EUS) "LNR & XC only" Super Off-Peak ticket, you'd be perfectly entitled to follow the text of the restriction code which says that:

A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

and therefore board the 15:50 XC service towards Tamworth (TAM), and change there onto the 16:56 LNR service to EUS - despite the fact that the latter would be departing between 16:00 and 19:00. Similarly, you could depart EUS on the 15:46 LNR service and change at TAM onto the 17:30 XC service.

Journey planners won't offer you the above Super Off-Peak ticket for those journeys, because the unpublished restrictions aren't set up in a way that allows them to do so. But it's still fine to follow the text of the restriction code.

Basically, customers can rely on whichever is more favourable to them - either the published restrictions (i.e. the text) or the unpublished restrictions (i.e. what journey planners will sell them).

 

[Haywain]

Average passengers aren't expected to know about unpublished restrictions. They are only used for journey planners, to determine the tickets they can offer for a given itinerary.

I would go further and say that no passengers are expected to know about them, for the very reasons you give.

 

[paul1609]

It's on the Off-Peak & Super Off-Peak tickets page on LNR's site, under "When are Super Off-Peak train times to and from London?"

The extension of the Super Off peak restriction to Saturdays only came in relatively recently. It was only 2 or 3 football seasons ago I used to regularly use them on the 07.46 service to Crewe from Euston. Id often have a whole coach to myself before Milton Keynes.
Since they uped the price to Off Peak Ive mostly used one of the coach companies northbound and returned on AWC cheap advances.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The extension of the Super Off peak restriction to Saturdays only came in relatively recently. It was only 2 or 3 football seasons ago I used to regularly use them on the 07.46 service to Crewe from Euston. Id often have a whole coach to myself before Milton Keynes.
Since they uped the price to Off Peak Ive mostly used one of the coach companies northbound and returned on AWC cheap advances.

Depending on Kick-Off times, and final destination, the £14 Superfare can be worth it. More time in London if it's early and a quick rush to the ground if it's later.

 

[yorkie]

If some of the restrictions are unpublished how can the average passenger know about them? For example, how would you stand buying a super off peak return from a ticket machine or ticket office with no itinerary which requires a connecting service to the London North Western train such as from Burton on Trent?

If you are following an itinerary, then all you need to do is follow that itinerary and your ticket is absolutely contractually valid; the customer did that, and was allowed to travel, as per the contract.

Queries relating to other matters are best discussed in a dedicated thread, to avoid confusing this one, but if you obtain a ticket without an itinerary or choose to follow an itinerary, then that's a different matter; feel free to create a new thread if you wish to discuss this further

 

[Bletchleyite]

In that case I think the guard acted broadly speaking correctly: they enforced the ticket restrictions as written, until you pointed out that the ticket had been sold in conjunction with the train you were on (because of the data not matching the restriction text).

The only bit that is a bit ambiguous is the "journeys begun at a valid time" sentence. I think it's intended to purely refer to the part of any journey made using this particular journey, but evidently the person who wrote that didn't really consider what would happen if someone held a series of split tickets and this wasn't the first ticket.

I have had a bit of an interest in these for a while because the electronic restrictions actually don't implement that latter phrase (as they can't) but I'm almost certain the "on the ticket" bit wasn't there originally and it was added later for clarification.

I think we generally take it that restrictions don't apply to things you may do on another ticket before or after the original one, otherwise you create stacks of very confusing anomalies. Thus for the OP's case Barrow is indeed not relevant - the only thing that matters is that the ticket was sold against an itinerary and thus by way of contract law is valid, whether the railway intended it to be or not.