LNWR/TfW Ticket Marked 'Northern'

[MikeWh]

The GWR services are diverting into Euston soon etc. regardless of pick up/set down only, it's arguements not worth getting into between staff and passengers.

What on earth have the diverted GWR services got to do with tickets on the WCML?

I'm surprised at Yorkie though - I thought you'd be arguing that these tickets are already valid on Avanti and that you're supporting a civil claim against another railway company. Can't have West Midlands Trains creating cheap, brand specific tickets can we?! You allegedly can't legitimately segregate routes by brand after all....

I'm really surprised by you actually, completely misunderstanding the situation. WMT (the company) are not creating brand specific tickets. It either says WMT, or LNR/WMR which are the two brands operated by the same company. It could be argued that using the brands together would help people where either brand might operate the service.

 

[507020]

What on earth have the diverted GWR services got to do with tickets on the WCML?

Because a ticket which is valid to Euston ONLY, not London Terminals, but route NOT AVANTI to prevent it from being valid on GWR into Paddington among others, which would otherwise be a good way of doing it, suddenly WOULD be valid on already capacity constrained GWR services into Euston

 

[yorkie]

Because a ticket which is valid to Euston ONLY, not London Terminals, but route NOT AVANTI to prevent it from being valid on GWR into Paddington among others, which would otherwise be a good way of doing it, suddenly WOULD be valid on already capacity constrained GWR services into Euston

How would that be possible?

If the trains called at Reading, or another suitable interchange, then maybe so (but is anyone really going to do that, other than a tiny handful of people?) but given the trains don't call anywhere that would be on a permitted route from Crewe, this is a non-issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm surprised at Yorkie though - I thought you'd be arguing that these tickets are already valid on Avanti and that you're supporting a civil claim against another railway company. Can't have West Midlands Trains creating cheap, brand specific tickets can we?! You allegedly can't legitimately segregate routes by brand after all....

They're not in practice brand specific. The brands are just used for clarity. You won't have any trouble using a LNR ticket on WMR or vice versa - some of the trains are even dual branded.

Not sure how Avanti is relevant, it isn't operated by WMT.

I don't think anyone would mind if route THAMESLINK ONLY tickets were accepted as valid on all GTR services (aside from it being a bit confusing).

 

[yorkie]

Indeed. Brand specific restrictions are not permitted, but WMT are not doing that!

While WMT's branding is needlessly confusing (at the behest of the DfT) they are not in any way attempting to differentiate by brand and there is nothing at all wrong with any of WMT's fares in this respect.

 

[MikeWh]

Because a ticket which is valid to Euston ONLY, not London Terminals, but route NOT AVANTI to prevent it from being valid on GWR into Paddington among others, which would otherwise be a good way of doing it, suddenly WOULD be valid on already capacity constrained GWR services into Euston

Given that the GWR services which will run into Euston will NOT call at Reading, this is a complete non issue.

 

[Krokodil]

At a time when fare evasion is rife on some routes due to a complete lack of enforcement, that would seem to be a very poor use of resources. Since both tickets cost exactly the same, "the railway" collectively hasn't lost any revenue at all; at worst there's a misallocation of revenue between TfW and DfT. Is that really important enough to be worth spending money on lawyers to prosecute the passenger? Especially when this alternative ticket/operator option was only invented a couple of weeks ago.

I'm fully in favour of punishing fare evaders. But prosecuting a passenger who has willingly paid the correct price for their journey, but has accidentally travelled with the "wrong" train operator, smacks of petty vindictiveness.

I would hope that if GBR ever happens, they sweep away these pointless and confusing stupidities.

Given that TIL are too busy wasting their resources checking tickets at Betws-y-Coed (a station without so much as a TVM, and no they don't have portable ticket machines with them) I doubt that they've got time left to be gallivanting off to Manchester to mess around with this. Certainly in North Wales they don't work trains unless specifically asked for assistance by the guard. The worst someone is likely to get is being stung for a £16.10 Anytime Single.

 

[kieron]

Given that the GWR services which will run into Euston will NOT call at Reading, this is a complete non issue.

That may have been the plan, but a few Euston trains are scheduled to stop in Reading, Didcot or Oxford for one reason or another. That's on 17th November, anyway.

It is a non-issue, though. London-Manchester via Reading is slow, even compared with the LNR offering, so the number of people using that route will be tiny. Closing Paddington for the day isn't going to change that.

 

[317 forever]

I reckon on using the one valid on Northern rather than TfW next time.

My nearest station is Heaton Chapel, followed by Burnage (although I don't think I've ever used Burnage to or from home), then East Didsbury then Stockport.

This way I can return home, preferably to Heaton Chapel but otherwise to Burnage if the train via Heaton Chapel is cancelled.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I reckon on using the one valid on Northern rather than TfW next time.

My nearest station is Heaton Chapel, followed by Burnage (although I don't think I've ever used Burnage to or from home), then East Didsbury then Stockport.

This way I can return home, preferably to Heaton Chapel but otherwise to Burnage if the train via Heaton Chapel is cancelled.

Just as long as you don't start short at a station other than Manchester Piccadilly on a Super Off Peak ticket, as it's barred by the restriction.

On the return leg, you can finish early.

Anytime and Off Peak don't have that restriction.

 

[Watershed]

Just as long as you don't start short at a station other than Manchester Piccadilly on a Super Off Peak ticket, as it's barred by the restriction.

On the return leg, you can finish early.

Anytime and Off Peak don't have that restriction.

I think this is probably the tenth time I've pointed this out on the forum this week, but walk-up tickets do not have break of journey restrictions unless mentioned in the text of the restriction code. Merely taking what BR Fares says at face value, without further investigation, is liable to mislead.

Restriction codes JA, JB, JM and JN do not say anything about break of journey so there are no restrictions on breaking your journey on these London to Manchester tickets.

 

[Flying Snail]

I think this is probably the tenth time I've pointed this out on the forum this week, but walk-up tickets do not have break of journey restrictions unless mentioned in the text of the restriction code. Merely taking what BR Fares says at face value, without further investigation, is liable to mislead.

Restriction codes JA, JB, JM and JN do not say anything about break of journey so there are no restrictions on breaking your journey on these London to Manchester tickets.

Where is Brfares getting wrong information from, Is it not just displaying the text from the restriction codes?

 

[OscarH]

Where is Brfares getting wrong information from, Is it not just displaying the text from the restriction codes?

The fares data has fields about this at a ticket level (not the restriction level). The fields are effectively complete garbage unfortunately, they're blatantly wrong more often than they're right.

In this case, OPR, the ticket data says "Outbound: no; Inbound: yes", which is where BRFares is getting it from. However you can see that's nonsense, as the human readable text (which is what actually applies, and frankly what is actually maintained to some degree) says it's valid unless the restriction code text bans it: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/opr/

 

[richardderby]

this new Northern fare was added back in August, there was a thread at the time..

noticed, Northern have added a new layer of tickets on this route Manchester/ Euston

OPR​

Route WMT & NTH ONLY​

Validity Outward: SEE RESTRICTNS (no break of journey) Return: SEE RESTRICTNS Restrictions JB SUPER OFF PEAK​

Adult £43.00​

Child​

they seem to show on LNER planners rather than the TFW connections, perhaps better timings at Crewe (just over 3 hours to Euston, with a 15 min connection at Crewe...)

 

[Flying Snail]

The fares data has fields about this at a ticket level (not the restriction level). The fields are effectively complete garbage unfortunately, they're blatantly wrong more often than they're right.

In this case, OPR, the ticket data says "Outbound: no; Inbound: yes", which is where BRFares is getting it from. However you can see that's nonsense, as the human readable text (which is what actually applies, and frankly what is actually maintained to some degree) says it's valid unless the restriction code text bans it: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/tickets/opr/

Good to know, thanks.