Lockdown effects now killing/harming more people than Covid

[nw1]

Agreed.

I have to admit, I am worried that there are attempts to introduce "COVID" measures for flu control to "Save the NHS" again.

The only way you can "save the NHS" is for the government to look after it properly, something they are self-evidently not doing; not to introduce authoritarian measures which were never used in modern times before Covid, even in a bad year like 1999/2000.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed.

I have to admit, I am worried that there are attempts to introduce "COVID" measures for flu control to "Save the NHS" again.

I found the group-think on what were extreme control measures very scary, and equally scary the response at the time to any view expressed that was not part of the on-going COVID group-think. I fear that those emotions have not gone away, and in difficult times the govt might try to deflect scrutiny of other problems by reintroducing COVID-type controls for flu.

There will always be people calling for such measures, but there is very little appetite for them. The sort of people who demand restrictions tend to be very vocal and also tend to use social media sites such as Twitter. I've not encountered many such people in the flesh and I am quite content to argue with anyone who is making such a claim.

Levels of 'flu seem to have been incredibly high in recent weeks but I suspect we will soon approach a state of equilibrium, once sufficient people have been exposed and had their immunity boosted. Any imposition of restrictions would merely delay exposures, not prevent them, but some people just don't get that.

I was incapacitated with 'flu a couple of weeks ago, for about 2 days I could hardly move however I soon got much better. Some post-viral symptoms remained for a while after and I was more ill than I have felt in many, many years. Speaking with others, it sounds like a lot of people experienced similar.

Please tell my concerns are unfounded....... (and thanks Yorkie for keeping this sub-forum open)

TPO

Yes I think wider fears are unfounded. As for this section, it's not just up to me, but I suspect it has until around Easter before being disbanded, but we shall see.

 

[Stephen42]

Flu continues to spread in England with number of hospital patients up 79%

NHS England medical director urges people to have vaccinations against Covid and flu to minimise ‘twindemic’

www.theguardian.com

Statistics can be twisted any way you like, I'd like to know the number of flu patients in hospital now compared to December 2019, whether lockdown over 2 winters has cost us some kind of immunity, due to lack of our usual exposure to flu, and/or whether today's patients, even if jabbed against flu and covid, have had covid to a lesser degree but it's attacked the immune system letting flu in?

(Does any of that make sense? I'm juat a puzzled layman!)

If they are using the dataset I think they are The Guardian have messed up and phrased a beds occupied metric in a way that sounds like admissions. The equivalent data series doesn't exist for December 2019 as it's only been collected the last two seasons.

Switching to admissions from a subset of NHS trusts (that report on flu admissions each year for surveillance purposes) it's up roughly 40% compared to December 2019 (12th - 18th 2022 data). Flu varies in size and timing each year, 2018/2019 the peak was 8 weeks later than 2019/2020 so year on year comparisons aren't that useful, it just so happens the shape looks similar this year to 2019/2020. Current admission levels are lower than the 2017/2018 peak so I wouldn't say it's exceptional yet just the first year following a more typical profile albeit towards the higher end.

Healthcare pressures would be higher than before due to workforce shortages and additional covid burden on top - the primarily covid beds occupied being a similar magnitude to the flu beds occupied.

 

[bramling]

Yes low rates of flu in the past few years means we now have to catch up; it was inevitable.

It’s certainly happening. I’ve never known a time before when literally *everyone* seems to have a cold. Of course, this comes rather conveniently for the usual suspects keen to milk things over Christmas. These jokers aside most people just seem to be getting on with it, and treating is as a fact of life.

 

[johnnychips]

I was incapacitated with 'flu a couple of weeks ago, for about 2 days I could hardly move however I soon got much better. Some post-viral symptoms remained for a while after and I was more ill than I have felt in many, many years. Speaking with others, it sounds like a lot of people experienced similar.

Hope you are better. A few of my friends got ‘flu’ but then some were diagnosed with Strep A, which points to a lack of immunity build-up during lockdown. Unfortunately this bacterial disease has proved fatal to a few children.

 

[philosopher]

It’s certainly happening. I’ve never known a time before when literally *everyone* seems to have a cold. Of course, this comes rather conveniently for the usual suspects keen to milk things over Christmas. These jokers aside most people just seem to be getting on with it, and treating is as a fact of life.

The large number of colds, flu, covid, etc going round has already been used as an excuse to cancel our team Christmas party at work on the basis that you might pick one of these illnesses up at the party.

Funnily enough, I never heard this excuse being used before 2020, even though the risk of picking up some illness from a party would have still existed.

 

[DustyBin]

The large number of colds, flu, covid, etc going round has already been used as an excuse to cancel our team Christmas party at work on the basis that you might pick one of these illnesses up at the party.

Funnily enough, I never heard this excuse being used before 2020, even though the risk of picking up some illness from a party would have still existed.

Seriously?! Christmas will be in winter next year too, so will this be the “new normal” one has to wonder……

You could suggest having your Christmas party in July as it will be “safer” for everyone, but by the sounds of it you shouldn’t give them any ideas!

 

[Class 33]

I remember back in 2021 these so called experts saying everyone should have their big Christmas togethers at EASTER instead. But then come Easter we were still in a pointless wreckless THIRD lockdown and other restrictions nonsense still going!

We really don't need all this "Covid restrictions" nonsense starting up all over again. But with the press and media creating panic and hysteria again, it is starting to concern me that this could well start up all over again. They've brought in mandatory Covid tests for passengers arriving from China. What next, mandatory Covid tests for passengers arriving from ANY country? Then what next, mandatory face masks on public transport, in shops(and indoor spaces) again? I bloody hope not!

 

[greyman42]

Seriously?! Christmas will be in winter next year too, so will this be the “new normal” one has to wonder……

You could suggest having your Christmas party in July as it will be “safer” for everyone, but by the sounds of it you shouldn’t give them any ideas!

I think this is a one off as i am not aware of any xmas parties being cancelled. Perhaps that particular company/office was looking for an excuse to cancel their party. Everyone i know is just behaving as normal and are not giving any thoughts to the possibilities of picking up a virus, be it covid or any other.

 

[island]

Sir Chris Whitty has warned the government that thousands of people, particularly in the 50-64 age bracket, are dying due to heart problems owing to pandemic measures displacing normal health-care, so they did not get access to (for example) statins or blood pressure medications. The UK's "excess deaths" level is around 800 per week but only about half due to COVID-19.

 

[yorkie]

What next, mandatory Covid tests for passengers arriving from ANY country? Then what next, mandatory face masks on public transport, in shops(and indoor spaces) again? I bloody hope not!

In a word: no.

 

[Eyersey468]

In a word: no.

I hope not though it is concerning that it could be the thin end of the wedge

 

[Enthusiast]

Then what next, mandatory face masks on public transport, in shops(and indoor spaces) again? I bloody hope not!

We're getting there:

Children told to stay home from school if sick amid flu, Covid and scarlet fever

The advice to parents at the end of the Christmas break comes amid high levels of flu and Covid cases.

www.bbc.co.uk

Adults should also stay at home when unwell and wear a face covering if they have to go out, she said.

 

[duncanp]

It was noticeable that in one of the "Review Of The Year" programmes on the BBC News Channel this week, there was a statement that during the year the UK reached the "grim" milestone of 150,000 COVID deaths.

The commentary on screen said that this milestone was 150,000 deaths with COVID, so in other words some of the deaths were due to underlying conditions.

But the verbal commentary made it sound like it was 150,000 deaths from COVID.

 

[yorkie]

We're getting there:

Children told to stay home from school if sick amid flu, Covid and scarlet fever

The advice to parents at the end of the Christmas break comes amid high levels of flu and Covid cases.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ah, Susan Hopkins; that explains everything. She trots out this nonsense every so often and the BBC are happy to lap it up.

She is best ignored; indeed it is pleasing to see about 98% of the population do ignore her requests.

 

[30907]

It was noticeable that in one of the "Review Of The Year" programmes on the BBC News Channel this week, there was a statement that during the year the UK reached the "grim" milestone of 150,000 COVID deaths.

The commentary on screen said that this milestone was 150,000 deaths with COVID, so in other words some of the deaths were due to underlying conditions.

But the verbal commentary made it sound like it was 150,000 deaths from COVID.

The ONS figure for deaths with covid is 210k, of which between 60% (recently) and 90% (much of 2020-21) were from covid, so 150k is about right.

 

[bramling]

Ah, Susan Hopkins; that explains everything. She trots out this nonsense every so often and the BBC are happy to lap it up.

She is best ignored; indeed it is pleasing to see about 98% of the population do ignore her requests.

I hope that will be the case, however I’m getting a bit twitchy with some of the “NHS in crisis” narrative. I also wonder if it would help this sinking government to have the population distracted by arguing over stuff like masks again.

We know from the past that give an inch and a mile will be taken by the lockdown fraternity, so it would seem the best thing to do is not acquiesce in the slightest, that was certainly my approach this time last year, and will be again.

 

[MikeWM]

I hope that will be the case, however I’m getting a bit twitchy with some of the “NHS in crisis” narrative.

It does seem to be the first news item out of the blocks for the New Year. Like every other year, but they really, really mean it this time, honest. Apparently Parliament should be recalled! (to do what, exactly?)

And accompanied by a minor side-dish of the latest 'new variant' which is becoming prevalent in the USA.

I'm not sure Sunak has the political capital to do much, however (on this or indeed on any other issue). And I think the NHS is now viewed by the majority as an albatross rather than something to be venerated, so I'd expect they'd need a better line now than 'save the NHS'.

We know from the past that give an inch and a mile will be taken by the lockdown fraternity, so it would seem the best thing to do is not acquiesce in the slightest, that was certainly my approach this time last year, and will be again.

Yes, 100%.

As for wearing masks if you're ill, what a wonderful idea that isn't, unless you're looking for an efficient way to make yourself more ill (look up the 'Foegen effect') - which will no doubt help the NHS immensely.

 

[NorthOxonian]

As for wearing masks if you're ill, what a wonderful idea that isn't, unless you're looking for an efficient way to make yourself more ill (look up the 'Foegen effect') - which will no doubt help the NHS immensely.

The argument made by those wanting more masks always seems to boil down to "they do it in Asia". Ignoring the fact that it's a symptom of some very unpleasant working cultures they have in some Asian countries which essentially force people to work no matter how sick they are (not something I'm keen to import) and also ignoring the fact that China is having a colossal outbreak despite the high levels of mask usage there...

 

[bramling]

The argument made by those wanting more masks always seems to boil down to "they do it in Asia". Ignoring the fact that it's a symptom of some very unpleasant working cultures they have in some Asian countries which essentially force people to work no matter how sick they are (not something I'm keen to import) and also ignoring the fact that China is having a colossal outbreak despite the high levels of mask usage there...

The one saving grace is that pretty much *everyone* seems to have cold-like symptoms at the moment, so there wouldn’t be a massive amount of point in masks even if they worked. And with everyone being in the same boat one is less likely to get dagger looks for coughing, as has been the case in the past.

I can certainly see the logic in attempting to dodge a new and unknown virus, however post-vaccine I really don’t see why some people are still going mad with hand gels or spraying surfaces with disinfectant (there are still people doing this). Messing with the natural process of immunity doesn’t seem to be serving us well, colds and the like are a fact of life, even if we’ve forgotten what it’s like to have them.

To be honest, at this juncture most people would be better served looking after their general fitness, especially heart health by the looks of things since there seem to be some concerning trends showing up there. Likewise I know plenty of people who have put a lot of weight on over the last three years.

 

[matthewjohnson]

It does seem to be the first news item out of the blocks for the New Year. Like every other year, but they really, really mean it this time, honest. Apparently Parliament should be recalled! (to do what, exactly?)

And accompanied by a minor side-dish of the latest 'new variant' which is becoming prevalent in the USA.

I'm not sure Sunak has the political capital to do much, however (on this or indeed on any other issue). And I think the NHS is now viewed by the majority as an albatross rather than something to be venerated, so I'd expect they'd need a better line now than 'save the NHS'.



Yes, 100%.

As for wearing masks if you're ill, what a wonderful idea that isn't, unless you're looking for an efficient way to make yourself more ill (look up the 'Foegen effect') - which will no doubt help the NHS immensely.

Which is just yet another version of omicron and was discovered in September

 

[MikeWM]

Which is just yet another version of omicron and was discovered in September

Indeed, it doesn't appear to be anything of any particular interest, but the usual suspects in the USA are going on about it being 'particularly vaccine evading' and so forth, a rather familiar script - they've clearly run out of new things to try to terrify us with, so keep on with the old 'favourites' which fortunately more people see through each time they try it.

 

[Dent]

The argument made by those wanting more masks always seems to boil down to "they do it in Asia".

Considering the amount of quack "medicine" that originates from asian culture, they are not exactly the best example to copy medical practices from.

 

[87electric]

Sir Chris Whitty has warned the government that thousands of people, particularly in the 50-64 age bracket, are dying due to heart problems owing to pandemic measures displacing normal health-care, so they did not get access to (for example) statins or blood pressure medications. The UK's "excess deaths" level is around 800 per week but only about half due to COVID-19.

Even I could have forewarned the government 12 months ago, on behalf of Whitty, that this would occur.

Dr John Campbell’s recent postings on excess deaths indicate his major concerns. He knows that something is very wrong, but is careful on his choice of words for fear of being shut down on the YouTube channel.

 

[MikeWM]

Dr John Campbell’s recent postings on excess deaths indicate his major concerns. He knows that something is very wrong, but is careful on his choice of words for fear of being shut down on the YouTube channel.

The change in Dr Campbell's videos over the last year or so has been truly fascinating, and his current methods of being very clear about what he is saying while not actually quite saying it - in order to try to avoid being kicked off YouTube - are fairly ingenious. And would also be quite amusing if the content wasn't so serious and discussion wasn't so constrained as to make it necessary to perform such gymnastics.

(Probably my favourite video was a couple of months ago on Ivermectin, where he showed he had a (partly-used) supply of tablets in his house 'in case he got scabies' )

Still, we have the usual winter NHS crisis now which will be used as a ready excuse for the excess deaths over the next few months. That's after the December cold snap. which to be fair *will* have caused some amount of excess death for those couple of weeks.

 

[DustyBin]

The change in Dr Campbell's videos over the last year or so has been truly fascinating, and his current methods of being very clear about what he is saying while not actually quite saying it - in order to try to avoid being kicked off YouTube - are fairly ingenious. And would also be quite amusing if the content wasn't so serious and discussion wasn't so constrained as to make it necessary to perform such gymnastics.

(Probably my favourite video was a couple of months ago on Ivermectin, where he showed he had a (partly-used) supply of tablets in his house 'in case he got scabies' )

Still, we have the usual winter NHS crisis now which will be used as a ready excuse for the excess deaths over the next few months. That's after the December cold snap. which to be fair *will* have caused some amount of excess death for those couple of weeks.

I'm not an avid follower, however I'm aware of his opinions and the "evolution" thereof. I don't believe he woke up one morning and decided to don a tinfoil hat, so I find his content interesting and slightly concerning (as is the fact the debate can't be had openly).

 

[87electric]

I'm not an avid follower, however I'm aware of his opinions and the "evolution" thereof. I don't believe he woke up one morning and decided to don a tinfoil hat, so I find his content interesting and slightly concerning (as is the fact the debate can't be had openly).

Dr John Campbell has already established his presence on the Rumble channel (where speech is apparently more acceptable - for now), and I can easily see his youtube channel being shut down if he decides to include opinions alongside the factual content. Who knows, maybe this is what is needed to start the ball rolling with truth. Who would have ever thought that people would be scared to speak openly?

 

[MikeWM]

Dr John Campbell has already established his presence on the Rumble channel (where speech is apparently more acceptable - for now), and I can easily see his youtube channel being shut down if he decides to include opinions alongside the factual content. Who knows, maybe this is what is needed to start the ball rolling with truth. Who would have ever thought that people would be scared to speak openly?

In many respects part of the point of such censorship is that they get you to start to censor *yourself*, which is indeed what Campbell is now doing, at least to a degree. As you say, he's now putting out videos on Rumble - that he's not even trying to put on his YouTube channel - because he knows they'd get him into trouble given the absurd and continuing restrictions on what you can say on YouTube regarding covid. Which is a terrible state of affairs, if unsurprising.

He's understandably reluctant to push YouTube to the stage of banning him, because he's got a lot of pre-covid videos on anatomy and physiology and so forth that are apparently quite well-used in teaching. I've been watching a few of the anatomy ones over the last month or so and they're rather good, I've learnt quite a lot...

 

[DustyBin]

Dr John Campbell has already established his presence on the Rumble channel (where speech is apparently more acceptable - for now), and I can easily see his youtube channel being shut down if he decides to include opinions alongside the factual content. Who knows, maybe this is what is needed to start the ball rolling with truth. Who would have ever thought that people would be scared to speak openly?

In many respects part of the point of such censorship is that they get you to start to censor *yourself*, which is indeed what Campbell is now doing, at least to a degree. As you say, he's now putting out videos on Rumble - that he's not even trying to put on his YouTube channel - because he knows they'd get him into trouble given the absurd and continuing restrictions on what you can say on YouTube regarding covid. Which is a terrible state of affairs, if unsurprising.

He's understandably reluctant to push YouTube to the stage of banning him, because he's got a lot of pre-covid videos on anatomy and physiology and so forth that are apparently quite well-used in teaching. I've been watching a few of the anatomy ones over the last month or so and they're rather good, I've learnt quite a lot...

I caught his latest YouTube video earlier purely by chance. In it he (not entirely subtly) appears to suggest his YouTube days may be numbered. If this is true it’s rather disturbing. Don’t challenge “The Science”….

 

[MikeWM]

I caught his latest YouTube video earlier purely by chance. In it he (not entirely subtly) appears to suggest his YouTube days may be numbered. If this is true it’s rather disturbing. Don’t challenge “The Science”….

He has since deleted that video from YouTube, and apologised for doing so but hasn't explained why - yes, I think he's well aware that he's not got long left on YouTube if he carries on with the themes of his current videos. The video is still available on Rumble. (For anyone wondering what we are referring to, it was a discussion of a study of medical staff in the USA that examined the likelihood of covid infection in late 2022 against the number of covid vaccinations received. The results rather closely matched the data we were seeing from the UKHSA early in 2022, which we discussed here at the time, before they decided to stop publishing that data for some reason or other).

Back on the subject of excess deaths, there are an awful lot of them just reported for the week running up to Christmas, but I'd be wary of trying to draw any inferences from that because I suspect many/most will be due to the unusually persistently cold couple of weeks we had then.