Loco renumbering at time of merger.

[Bevan Price]

Moderator note - split from:

Shed Codes

During BR days, all steam loco sheds had been allocated shed codes. For example, Plaistow was 33A. During the time it was part of the LMS, it was 13A. I dont know what the GWR, SR and LNER did as an equivalent. Was this type of shed code started by the LMS, or were they earlier than that? In...

www.railforums.co.uk

To elaborate on the LNER renumbering (see RCTS History of LNER Locos, Volume 1)
A few locos were renumbered in 1942, but the first major renumbering scheme was only proposed in 1943.
Maybe because it was wartime, the scheme was only implemented - with some changes - from 1946.

Number blocks were allocated as follows:
1-999 Largest express passenger locos
1xxx: Six coupled passenger & mixed traffic tender locos
2xxx: Four coupled passenger tender locos
3xxx: Eight coupled freight tender locos
4xxx, 5xxx: Six coupled freight tender locos
6xxx: Electric
7xxx: Passenger tank locos
8xxx: Shunting tank locos
9xxx: Mixed traffic & freight tank locos
--------------------------------------------------------

Numbers in the 1-999 series were changed in the 1946 scheme; for example
A4: Originally in series 1-4, 580-613 became 1-34
A3/old A1: Originally 500-578, became 35-112 (with 113 rebuilt as prototype "new A1")
V2: Should have been 700-883, but became 800-983
Some GCR 4-6-0s should have been in 13xx series, but were moved to 16xx series (to create space for new B1 4-6-0s)

 

[Taunton]

The most oddball renumbering approach has to be what the GWR did in 1923 with their various lines absorbed in South Wales etc.

Firstly the many hundreds of such locos were all assembled into a logical list, sequenced by wheel arrangement and former owner, which in the days before Excel must have taken a clerk some time to do. A sensible start.

But then, this list was then applied sequentially to all the odd GWR spare numbers upwards from 1, of which there were a considerable quantity due to earlier GWR withdrawals, so even where there had been a logical class group numbered together on the independent railway, they were now split up by odd GWR locos remaining. Not only that, but the independent companies were absorbed at different times, and the second group taken over did the same thing, starting from 1 again. By this time a number of those previously absorbed had already been withdrawn, their numbers becoming spare again, so groups were further broken up and split apart. It left a complete numbering mish-mash, through to nationalisation time, when there was a partial attempt to renumber what was left of these into more logical groups.

 

[Beebman]

The most oddball renumbering approach has to be what the GWR did in 1923 with their various lines absorbed in South Wales etc.

Firstly the many hundreds of such locos were all assembled into a logical list, sequenced by wheel arrangement and former owner, which in the days before Excel must have taken a clerk some time to do. A sensible start.

But then, this list was then applied sequentially to all the odd GWR spare numbers upwards from 1, of which there were a considerable quantity due to earlier GWR withdrawals, so even where there had been a logical class group numbered together on the independent railway, they were now split up by odd GWR locos remaining. Not only that, but the independent companies were absorbed at different times, and the second group taken over did the same thing, starting from 1 again. By this time a number of those previously absorbed had already been withdrawn, their numbers becoming spare again, so groups were further broken up and split apart. It left a complete numbering mish-mash, through to nationalisation time, when there was a partial attempt to renumber what was left of these into more logical groups.

Something which strikes me as particularly oddball is the original numbering of the 3 Vale of Rheidol locos which were built in 1923/4 - they originally had the numbers 7,8 and 1213! The last of the trio wasn't sensibly renumbered to 9 until after nationalisation. (However I've seen a story that it was numbered 1213 for accounting purposes in order to classify it as a rebuilt loco even though it was in fact a completely new build.)

 

[Gloster]

Something which strikes me as particularly oddball is the original numbering of the 3 Vale of Rheidol locos which were built in 1923/4 - they originally had the numbers 7,8 and 1213! The last of the trio wasn't sensibly renumbered to 9 until after nationalisation. (However I've seen a story that it was numbered 1213 for accounting purposes in order to classify it as a rebuilt loco even though it was in fact a completely new build.)

Very much so. The two absorbed VoR locos were 1212 and 1213 as that put them among the absorbed 2-6-2T. In 1924 1213 went to Swindon but came back as a new loco to the same design as the two that had been built the previous year. However, as only two new locos had been authorised by higher authority, the new construction had to be fiddled through the books as an overhaul.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The most oddball renumbering approach has to be what the GWR did in 1923 with their various lines absorbed in South Wales etc.

Firstly the many hundreds of such locos were all assembled into a logical list, sequenced by wheel arrangement and former owner, which in the days before Excel must have taken a clerk some time to do. A sensible start.

But then, this list was then applied sequentially to all the odd GWR spare numbers upwards from 1, of which there were a considerable quantity due to earlier GWR withdrawals, so even where there had been a logical class group numbered together on the independent railway, they were now split up by odd GWR locos remaining.

However, some absorbed locomotives kept their numbers if they did not duplicate an existing one. This would split up some classes because some numbvers were duplicated and others were not.

Famously the two Corris Railway locomotives absorbed by the GWR kept their CR numbers, 3 and 4, which of course were carried over to Britiosh Railways. Shortly afterwrads there was a washout which separated the loco shed from the rest of the line, leaving the line witghout traction and tghe locos with nowhere to operate. They were bought by the newly-formed Talyllyn Railway society to augment its knackered pair of locomotives, and so were renumbered as 3 and 4 in that railway's fleet. Four owners, no renumbering.

 

[Gloster]

It appears that the GWR only numbered four locos in the single digits, all former Barry Railway Class G. As they were 0-4-4T, a wheel-arrangement that was not (I believe) in favour with the GWR, it looks as though this may have deliberately been done so as to free up the lowest numbers for odd locos. All four were gone by 1930 and all the other 0-4-4T, together with the odd 2-6-0 and a couple of 4-4-4T, by 1933, so this should have freed up all the numbers below 28 for such oddments. However, two Brecon & Merthyr 0-6-2T were renumbered 11 and 21 for some reason.

 

[Bevan Price]

Very much so. The two absorbed VoR locos were 1212 and 1213 as that put them among the absorbed 2-6-2T. In 1924 1213 went to Swindon but came back as a new loco to the same design as the two that had been built the previous year. However, as only two new locos had been authorised by higher authority, the new construction had to be fiddled through the books as an overhaul.

That sort of "accountancy manipulation" was far from unique. Most of the LMSR "Patriot" 4-6-0s were supposedly rebuilt from LNWR "Claughton" class. Only the first two Patriots are thought to have contained much from the original Claughtons; the next 40 Patriots may have contained a few Claughton bits and pieces; the final 10 were totally new. (There should have been 15 in that final build, but 5 appeared instead as Jubilees. )

The early Patriots initially retained Claughton numbers, but all were renumbered in 1934.

 

[Taunton]

Something which strikes me as particularly oddball is the original numbering of the 3 Vale of Rheidol locos which were built in 1923/4 - they originally had the numbers 7,8 and 1213! The last of the trio wasn't sensibly renumbered to 9 until after nationalisation. (However I've seen a story that it was numbered 1213 for accounting purposes in order to classify it as a rebuilt loco even though it was in fact a completely new build.)

It was a particularly convoluted approach. The Cambrian had Davies & Metcalfe build them two narrow gauge 2-6-2T in 1902, numbered 1 and 2, which superficially look like the later Swindon locos with their oversize side tanks. When taken over by the GWR they were just renumbered 1212/3 in the next gaps in the GWR series (1211 was given to an Alexandra Dock standard gauge 2-6-2T). The locos were pretty worn by then but only 20 years old so not fully depreciated, which was not only important in its own right for calculating tax (the railways were substantial payers) but there were Board of Trade rules for what they could spend on new and overhauled locos, which all trickled through to numbering policy.

The GWR built two new locos to an improved version of the design. Meanwhile two Victorian GWR old 4-4-0 locos numbered 7 and 8, fully depreciated, were renumbered 4171/2, and a few months later the new VofR locos were given 7 and 8. The original D&M locos were then sent to Swindon and dismantled, while a new third loco was built. Still wanting the depreciation credit this was classed as a rebuild of 1213. Well, it looked sort of the same. Someone can say whether the original D&M works plate was attached to it.

There had been considerable argument overall between the GWR accountants and the Cambrian directors at merger time about the value of their loco stock, which may have come into it. The wrecks of the two Abermule collision locos, which happened just months before the merger, were at the back of Oswestry works, but they still showed a significant value in the Cambrian accounts, not being fully depreciated, and were apparently uninsured, so the GWR just wanted them at scrap value. While being sorted out GWR staff were told not to touch the wrecks. So there we go. Who would have thought the VofR strange loco numbering of 7, 8 and 1213, which I see is carried again by the three locos today, was impacted by the Abermule accident?

 

[Beebman]

It appears that the GWR only numbered four locos in the single digits, all former Barry Railway Class G. As they were 0-4-4T, a wheel-arrangement that was not (I believe) in favour with the GWR, it looks as though this may have deliberately been done so as to free up the lowest numbers for odd locos. All four were gone by 1930 and all the other 0-4-4T, together with the odd 2-6-0 and a couple of 4-4-4T, by 1933, so this should have freed up all the numbers below 28 for such oddments. However, two Brecon & Merthyr 0-6-2T were renumbered 11 and 21 for some reason.

There appears to have been two ex-LBSCR Terriers which were acquired by the GWR on the closure of the WC&PR and numbered 5 & 6 (renumbered from 2 & 4 respectively). They're described on these links:

https://wcpr.org.uk/No2_PortisheadTerrier.html
https://wcpr.org.uk/No4.html

(There was also a BR no.1 which was a Peckett saddle tank acquired from the Ystalyfera Tin Works but it doesn't appear to have ever been owned by the GWR.)

 

[Gloster]

There appears to have been two ex-LBSCR Terriers which were acquired by the GWR on the closure of the WC&PR and numbered 5 & 6 (renumbered from 2 & 4 respectively). They're described on these links:

https://wcpr.org.uk/No2_PortisheadTerrier.html
https://wcpr.org.uk/No4.html

(There was also a BR no.1 which was a Peckett saddle tank acquired from the Ystalyfera Tin Works but it doesn't appear to have ever been owned by the GWR.)

The two Terriers were only acquired in 1940 and were just about the only usable items that came from the WC&P when it was put out of its misery. No. 1 was never owned by the GWR, coming straight to BR in early 1948.

 

[Bevan Price]

Some more information about LMSR renumbering at the 1923 grouping and subsequently is given in "Locomotives At The Grouping" by HC Casserley and SW Johnston.

As posted previously, Midland Railway locos retained their original numbers. They were allocated number series 1-4999, although they never completely filled that series.


North Staffordshire and London Tilbury & Southend Railways locos used gaps in the MR series. Many LTSR locos were later renumbered to create gaps for new LMSR Fairburn 2-6-4T.
The MR 3F 0-6-0T, orginally 1900 - 1959 were renumbered 7200-7259 from 1934, to form a common series with their LMSR built equivalents (starting at 7260). Those LMSR "Jinties" were also renumbered 7260-7309 were originally 7100-7149; 7317-7681 had been 16400-16764;
7310-7316 had been S&DJR 19-25

LNWR locos had been allocated 5xxx-9xxx series, starting with passenger tender locos at 5000, up to freight tender locos in the 8xxx and 9xxx series.
Some were later renumbered in the 2xxxx series to create vacant number series for new LMSR locos.


Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway locos were allocated:
10xxx - Passenger tender locos. plus some tank locos
11xxx - Tank locos (mostly shunters)
12xxx - Freight tender locos. Furness Railway and some other small railways were also fitted into the L&YR series.

Scottish Railways were allocated:
14xxx - Passenger tender locos
15xxx - Passenger tank locos
16xxx - Shunters
17xxx - Freight tender locos
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Taunton]

It appears that the GWR only numbered four locos in the single digits, all former Barry Railway Class G. As they were 0-4-4T, a wheel-arrangement that was not (I believe) in favour with the GWR, it looks as though this may have deliberately been done so as to free up the lowest numbers for odd locos. All four were gone by 1930 and all the other 0-4-4T, together with the odd 2-6-0 and a couple of 4-4-4T, by 1933, so this should have freed up all the numbers below 28 for such oddments. However, two Brecon & Merthyr 0-6-2T were renumbered 11 and 21 for some reason.

At the 1923 merger numbering, all the single digit GWR loco numbers were taken.

1, 5 and 6 were old 2-4-0T passenger tanks.
7 and 8 were the two old 4-4-0 referred to above as renumbered for the new VofR locos.
2, 3, 4 and 9 were spare from recent withdrawals, and given to the four Barry Railway 0-4-4T.

Later, rather than trying to ensure all numbers were used, these were just used for odd locos. 3 and 4 were scrapped in the late 1920s so were coincidentally available when the Corris was taken over in 1929. 2 became the pioneer 1930s GWR diesel shunter, 15100 after nationalisation. And so on.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Moderator note - split from:

Shed Codes

During BR days, all steam loco sheds had been allocated shed codes. For example, Plaistow was 33A. During the time it was part of the LMS, it was 13A. I dont know what the GWR, SR and LNER did as an equivalent. Was this type of shed code started by the LMS, or were they earlier than that? In...

www.railforums.co.uk

To elaborate on the LNER renumbering (see RCTS History of LNER Locos, Volume 1)
A few locos were renumbered in 1942, but the first major renumbering scheme was only proposed in 1943.
Maybe because it was wartime, the scheme was only implemented - with some changes - from 1946.

Number blocks were allocated as follows:
1-999 Largest express passenger locos
1xxx: Six coupled passenger & mixed traffic tender locos
2xxx: Four coupled passenger tender locos
3xxx: Eight coupled freight tender locos
4xxx, 5xxx: Six coupled freight tender locos
6xxx: Electric
7xxx: Passenger tank locos
8xxx: Shunting tank locos
9xxx: Mixed traffic & freight tank locos
--------------------------------------------------------

Curiously, LNER internal combustion diesel locomotives were numbered in with the other shunting engines. Nos 8000-8003 (diesel) and 8188 to 8189 (petrol).

Only two LNER locomotives kept their original numbers in the 1946 scheme - ex-GNR class J3 0-6-0 no 4125, and class W1 4-6-4 No 10000 (the rebuilt "Hush-Hush")

The electric block of 1,000 numbers proved to be rather over-provided, as the LNER only ever had fourteen electric locos, thirteen of which were inherited from the NER, and only two ever saw use on the LNER after re-numbering. Of the other twelve, ten had been in store since the line they had been built for was de-electrified in the 1930s, one had been built by the NER for an electrification project which never happened (the loco was scrapped nearly thirty years before the line was eventually electrified in 1989, and on ac, not dc), and the last was built by the LNER in 1941 for a project that was not completed until several years after the LNER ceased to exist - it was loaned to the Netherlands Railways for several years.