Loganair - No longer for sale

[DarloRich]

That says a lot, though isn't the overnight boat now freight only?

it wasn't entirely serious - the person saying it wouldn't be seen dead on the ferry! Utterly gauche. I think thier biggest issue with IoM transport is that while quite rich they are not rich enough to afford thier own jet.

( i am certain we could have booked the stupid o'clock from Heysham as self loading freight when we looked recently)

 

[Bletchleyite]

( i am certain we could have booked the stupid o'clock from Heysham as self loading freight when we looked recently)

Looks like you now can, maybe it was a COVID thing or something.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I assume in this event that all hotel costs and additional charges can be credited to either the airport or the Isle of Man government whose curfew and rules prevent easyJet from operating the service?

Lots of airports have hard curfews, including Berlin, and the responsibility is on the airline to adhere to their schedule. If they don’t then that’s on the airline. That late Gatwick flight shouldn’t routinely be arriving one to two hours late.

As an aside, it tends to be better in winter- EasyJet fly it slightly earlier and they have a less intensive daily schedule. So that shows it’s all s choice for EasyJet.

Boris Johnsons old seat shows the public have had enough of net zero.

Did it? Labour lost by 300 votes, but 900 people voted for the Greens.

I’m not sure we can draw any conclusions from a by-election.

Anyway, back on topic…

Any French style legislation will shrink Loganair's market. Does anyone think its a company that is going to grow significantly in the medium to long term?

A French-style regulation wouldn’t affect Loganair’s market at all because there isn’t any high speed rail serving those markets. There’s not a single Loganair route that would be affected by, say, a three-hour land transport limit and only a handful (Newcastle-Aberdeen being the obvious one) that would hit a four-hour land transport limit.

As for growth, it probably won’t grow much, but so what? There’s plenty to be said for knowing your role and sticking to it. Flybe v1 went bust mainly because they went and bought a big fleet of expensive Embraer jets to expand into markets that nobody really needed or wanted them in.

Loganair’s targets are the “thin” regional routes in England as well as the PSO-type stuff to islands and Highland Scotland. It’s not sexy and it’s not exciting and, yes, it’s mostly a flying bus.

Looks like you now can, maybe it was a COVID thing or something.

It was during Covid, but generally isn’t now. It only ends up freight-only if the Arrow has to be used, as the Arrow is freight-only.

gauche. I think thier biggest issue with IoM transport is that while quite rich they are not rich enough to afford thier own jet.

I wasn’t really joking when I said there’s a sizeable sub-set of people who expect to pay £25 each way but get free wine and caviar on the flight.

I also think people look at the ATR72 and assume it’s a relic from the 1950s. But Loganair’s ATR72s are more modern than the A319s that EasyJet fly here.

I’m perfectly happy with a cup of crap coffee and a Tunnocks caramel wafer.

 

[DarloRich]

Are Logan air still flying from Teesside - I thought they took over one of the Eastern Airways routes to Aberdeen for oil people.

I wasn’t really joking when I said there’s a sizeable sub-set of people who expect to pay £25 each way but get free wine and caviar on the flight.

I also think people look at the ATR72 and assume it’s a relic from the 1950s. But Loganair’s ATR72s are more modern than the A319s that EasyJet fly here.

I’m perfectly happy with a cup of crap coffee and a Tunnocks caramel wafer.

I absolutely agree!

It only ends up freight-only if the Arrow has to be used, as the Arrow is freight-only.

I have heard tell that you can put your camper van on Arrow as it classes as a freight vehicle. Not sure I believe that..........

( what I think is the reality: Your NEW camper van on delivery can come over from the mainland on Arrow if need be!)

(MILES off topic!)

Loganair’s targets are the “thin” regional routes in England as well as the PSO-type stuff to islands and Highland Scotland. It’s not sexy and it’s not exciting and, yes, it’s mostly a flying bus.

and my experience is that they do that pretty well ( based on Highlands and Islands flights). It is an absolutely no frills, lifeline, flying bus service to outer communities otherwise several days by road/ferry from civilisation

 

[Tetchytyke]

I have heard tell that you can put your camper van on Arrow as it classes as a freight vehicle. Not sure I believe that

I’m not sure about campervans, but normal vans are treated (and have to be booked as) commercial vehicles.

A small number of passengers can in theory travel on the Arrow- I think it’s about 10- so it may well be true.

 

[Irascible]

Maybe this was an attempt to get it nationalised? although there already are some govt operated air services up there ( or were recently anyway ).

Hour 20ish from Exeter to the big cities & not much more for the places further north, I'm quite happy with water for that. Nothing else is *remotely* competitive.

 

[Cloud Strife]

As for growth, it probably won’t grow much, but so what? There’s plenty to be said for knowing your role and sticking to it. Flybe v1 went bust mainly because they went and bought a big fleet of expensive Embraer jets to expand into markets that nobody really needed or wanted them in.

Yes, Loganair really don't need to expand. They might move into foreign PSO operations if it's viable for them, but in general, there's absolutely no reason for them to take big risks and expand when their existing network is profitable.

They do well with connecting flights from places like Amsterdam as well, and there's absolutely no reason for them to risk everything by doing what Flybe did.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Expansion for loganair could look something like a few more code share agreements with larger full service carriers allowing through bookings and maybe even some packaged type deals for example flight and hotel or flight hotel and parking or flight and parking to be booked through one seamless booking process without using a travel agent who either takes a cut or doesn't offer such a competitive fare

 

[Bletchleyite]

Expansion for loganair could look something like a few more code share agreements with larger full service carriers

It was a BA, then FlymayBe, franchisee for long enough. So perhaps a bit of codesharing, yes, but I doubt there would be a big move towards that again.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Not a big move certainly and you can still do stuff like London I believe with BA but would still make a bit of sense if they did tentatively offer a few more, they're probably wouldn't be a huge uptake but would certainly be advantageous to be able to tailor a schedule from longer distance to fit round your flight to and from the aisles

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not a big move certainly and you can still do stuff like London I believe with BA but would still make a bit of sense if they did tentatively offer a few more

Codeshare is only with BA and KLM.

However Loganair do already interline with a surprising number of airlines, including Aer Lingus, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, and Singapore Airlines.

 

[AlastairFraser]

A French-style regulation wouldn’t affect Loganair’s market at all because there isn’t any high speed rail serving those markets. There’s not a single Loganair route that would be affected by, say, a three-hour land transport limit and only a handful (Newcastle-Aberdeen being the obvious one) that would hit a four-hour land transport limit.

Actually Glasgow to Campbeltown is under 3 hours by road currently at 11pm , but definitely would be affected by a 4 hour transport limit, even with traffic.
Having said that, I don't think it is insurmountable for Loganair to introduce a zero emission aircraft on that route and perhaps a few others. It is quite a short distance by air and, if there is a zero emission aircraft available in the future with around 175 miles range, it would be possible to divert to several airports in NI (capability to divert is a noted concern from Loganair's CEO.)

 

[Cloud Strife]

It is quite a short distance by air and, if there is a zero emission aircraft available in the future with around 175 miles range, it would be possible to divert to several airports in NI (capability to divert is a noted concern from Loganair's CEO.)

I think it would be too far for diversions to NI with such a range, but Islay and Prestwick would be in range.

Having said this, I could see Loganair merging with Atlantic Airways in time. It would be a beneficial partnership for both of them, and perhaps lead to the development of more economic links between the Faroe Islands and Scotland.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think it would be too far for diversions to NI with such a range, but Islay and Prestwick would be in range.

Having said this, I could see Loganair merging with Atlantic Airways in time. It would be a beneficial partnership for both of them, and perhaps lead to the development of more economic links between the Faroe Islands and Scotland.

Of course, Islay and Prestwick. Then you'd only need 150 miles range.

As for the merger, I'm not sure you'd want an airline like Atlantic merging, perhaps Eastern because they're much closer in market and fleet.

If I was to recommend any airline merger, I'd say Isles of Scilly Skybus and Aurigny, the helicopters in the IoS fleet would be useful for Guernsey to Sark/Herm services. Plus the increased economies of scale would allow the combined airline to drop fares and create new links.

 

[Cloud Strife]

As for the merger, I'm not sure you'd want an airline like Atlantic merging, perhaps Eastern because they're much closer in market and fleet.

Yes, it's a surprise that Loganair and Eastern haven't merged yet, given the similarities between the two. There's a need for a strong Flybe-type operator that doesn't expand too aggressively, but rather caters for niche and PSO routes without trying to overreach.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yes, it's a surprise that Loganair and Eastern haven't merged yet, given the similarities between the two. There's a need for a strong Flybe-type operator that doesn't expand too aggressively, but rather caters for niche and PSO routes without trying to overreach.

I think the Eastern Group are strongly Humberside-based and want to build business from there to be honest, I think they'd be worried about the east coast being overshadowed in a potential merger.

 

[Lost property]

I also think people look at the ATR72 and assume it’s a relic from the 1950s. But Loganair’s ATR72s are more modern than the A319s that EasyJet fly here.

I’m perfectly happy with a cup of crap coffee and a Tunnocks caramel wafer.

You seem to be very confused.

The ATR fleet is contemporary and expansive across the globe, although I will accept the well documented icing issues.

Had you said the, now defunct, thankfully !!!...ATP, then you would have been correct. An aircraft "designed and constructed " to be a relic from the onset and one that could rapidly reduce a healthy balance sheet to anything but. Loganair actually holds an unenviable record with the ATP....an IFSD within a 15 mins flight, Woodford to Manchester.

 

[Irascible]

To be fair, the ATR72 is older than the A320 as a design so it is sortof a relic of the 80s, which doesn't mean it isn't any use of course. I'm not terribly fond of them & I've spent too long in a Fokker 50...

Also *every* Dash 8 pilot I've talked to about them absolutely hates them! the Q400 has more power in one engine than the ATR has total.

 

[AlastairFraser]

To be fair, the ATR72 is older than the A320 as a design so it is sortof a relic of the 80s, which doesn't mean it isn't any use of course. I'm not terribly fond of them & I've spent too long in a Fokker 50...

Also *every* Dash 8 pilot I've talked to about them absolutely hates them! the Q400 has more power in one engine than the ATR has total.

Tbh I've not heard anyone raving about the Dash 8.

 

[PsychoMouse]

The obvious answer would be to introduce an affordable network of sleeper trains

Nobody wants to travel by sleeper train.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Nobody wants to travel by sleeper train.

Depends on the price - the overnight coaches I've used several times have been quite popular (not necessarily cheap either - 35 quid Manchester to London, booked weeks in advance).
But if you charge Caledonian Sleeper sort of prices, it's not viable.
I reckon £50pp would garner a reasonable amount of trade with decent advertising - decent but basic rooms, maybe a coin/card entry shower, couple of toilets per carriage, a buffet car with a continental breakfast for an extra fee...

 

[Tetchytyke]

You seem to be very confused.

I think you’ve misunderstood my point. People see turboprops and assume they’re something out of Indiana Jones. Not that they actually are out of Indiana Jones.

As I said, the ATR72s here are newer than the EasyJet A319s.

Also *every* Dash 8 pilot I've talked to about them absolutely hates them! the Q400 has more power in one engine than the ATR has total.

Which is why the ATR72 is popular with airlines around the world and the Q400 a bit less so. The ATR72 is a flying bus but it’s also cheap to run.

Before Flybe v1 went bust they changed from the Q400 to (Stobart) ATR72s for their flights here to save money.

 

[birchesgreen]

I think you’ve misunderstood my point. People see turboprops and assume they’re something out of Indiana Jones. Not that they actually are out of Indiana Jones.

As I said, the ATR72s here are newer than the EasyJet A319s.

Yes my wife was the same when we flew on a Loganair ATR a few months ago, when she saw the plane her face had a look of horror.

 

[JamesT]

Depends on the price - the overnight coaches I've used several times have been quite popular (not necessarily cheap either - 35 quid Manchester to London, booked weeks in advance).
But if you charge Caledonian Sleeper sort of prices, it's not viable.
I reckon £50pp would garner a reasonable amount of trade with decent advertising - decent but basic rooms, maybe a coin/card entry shower, couple of toilets per carriage, a buffet car with a continental breakfast for an extra fee...

Yes, if you give away the service for virtually free you'll get much more interest. But when the current sleeper pricing involves a hefty subsidy for every passenger, there's going to be reluctance by government to stump up even more.

 

[PsychoMouse]

Depends on the price

Not entirely. Spend £35 (a ridiculously low amount but I'll go with it) and spend 10+ hours on a cramped noisy train probably not getting much sleep, or spend a little bit more (though a lot of the time around the same or less) and get where you need to be in around 90 minutes and sleep in your own bed or a hotel?

A not so difficult choice for 99.9% of people, the appetite for sleeper trains outside of this forum is minuscule.

I can't think of a single journey in the UK I'd rather take by sleeper over flying or even driving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case there are Sleepers already on the two main viable routes for them - there are very few UK journeys that are long enough otherwise.

The only one missing is South West to North East, but I suspect demand would be too low for it to be viable.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Yes, if you give away the service for virtually free you'll get much more interest. But when the current sleeper pricing involves a hefty subsidy for every passenger, there's going to be reluctance by government to stump up even more.

Part of the reason the subsidy is so high is the staff requirements on the CS/Night Riviera and the lower load factor.
Some initial subsidy to set up would be required, but the market is considerable.

Not entirely. Spend £35 (a ridiculously low amount but I'll go with it) and spend 10+ hours on a cramped noisy train probably not getting much sleep, or spend a little bit more (though a lot of the time around the same or less) and get where you need to be in around 90 minutes and sleep in your own bed or a hotel?

A not so difficult choice for 99.9% of people, the appetite for sleeper trains outside of this forum is minuscule.

I can't think of a single journey in the UK I'd rather take by sleeper over flying or even driving.

Sleeper trains have no reason to be cramped and noisy.
Whether a flight is cost effective depends on a range of factors (baggage needed, distance from airport, whether your journey is served by a low cost airline etc.) and 1.5 hours is way too optimistic about the length of time flying takes in total.
Account for getting to and from the origin and destination airports, going through security (e.g. at Manchester, it's advisable to leave at least an hour and a half for security/check in, especially given airlines want you at the gate 40 mins before) and baggage claim.
That makes it more like 4hr30.
And if you're heading for a domestic city break or holiday (quite a popular option, especially since Covid), then flying in the evening before the holiday starts proper ( say Friday evening for a weekend city break), you then have to sort a hotel for an extra night.
Which adds cost further.

In any case there are Sleepers already on the two main viable routes for them - there are very few UK journeys that are long enough otherwise.

The only one missing is South West to North East, but I suspect demand would be too low for it to be viable.

Well, there's several National Express coaches through the night taking passengers Penzance to Brum, so that portion would definitely be viable.
And also both Megabus + National Express on the Brum to NE portion, so there's even more demand.
You get absolutely no sleep on those and, as I said, they're not cheap.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Part of the reason the subsidy is so high is the staff requirements on the CS/Night Riviera and the lower load factor.

Sleeper trains have no reason to be cramped and noisy.

There is a finite amount of space on a sleeper train. If you have larger cabins, and if you don’t make strangers share a cabin, then you reduce the number of passengers who can be carried.

CS isn’t over staffed at all. The Taunton sleeper disaster shows why you always need more staff about on a sleeper train.

CS have, however, gone down the private cabin route, which reduces load; funnily enough most passengers don’t want to share a bedroom with a complete stranger.

If you go the other way and choose to maximise the number of passengers then you end up with 6-berth couchettes. Now 6-berth couchettes are fine when you’re a student on an Interrail pass and you don’t need to work the next day.

For me, flight+hotel or spending 10 hours in a couchette with five complete strangers is a complete no-brainer. Plane every single time.

 

[route101]

I have Loganair a few times. They have some very handy connections such as Central Belt to Southampton and Exeter but at a cost.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There is a finite amount of space on a sleeper train. If you have larger cabins, and if you don’t make strangers share a cabin, then you reduce the number of passengers who can be carried.

CS isn’t over staffed at all. The Taunton sleeper disaster shows why you always need more staff about on a sleeper train.

CS have, however, gone down the private cabin route, which reduces load; funnily enough most passengers don’t want to share a bedroom with a complete stranger.

If you go the other way and choose to maximise the number of passengers then you end up with 6-berth couchettes. Now 6-berth couchettes are fine when you’re a student on an Interrail pass and you don’t need to work the next day.

For me, flight+hotel or spending 10 hours in a couchette with five complete strangers is a complete no-brainer. Plane every single time.

Oh of course there'll be passengers who don't want to share, but the only current public transport option is overnight coaches where you are directly next to (sometimes seats are so narrow you're touching) someone you don't know or trust for 8 hours plus too.