London Buses Discussion

[Busaholic]

It was indeed a on 91, TE1745. (Formerly First DN33605)

Holborn bus crash: Four injured as roof torn off bus on Kingsway

www.standard.co.uk

I can't remember what I had for tea last night, but I retain totally useless information.

 

[DaveLondon]

Sounds about par for the course, I can't see any of these routes being a success.

I am slightly baffled by your comments. The various I have travelled on a very busy indeed.

 

[GusB]

The discussion regarding heating in electric buses was taking the thread off-topic and has been moved here:

Provision of saloon heating in electric buses

Mod note - discussion split from this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-buses-discussion.146383/ It seems that the winter weather, and the need for saloon heating, is proving bit much for some of the electrics' undersized batteries. Over the last few days multiple routes have...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[RacsoMoquette]

Would anyone have any further information as to when Go Ahead London's (Me) Optare Metrodecker EVs will resume service on the 200 after being fully checked and sufficiently reliable? I am surprised that Stagecoach, TUK and Arriva did not withdraw their Metrocities? Also I did not remember RATP withdrawing their Metrodeckers after YJ21 EYP (Me12) caught fire in Wimbledon on the morning of the 11th January.

I have been watching some videos on the internet which comprise of journeys on Metroline's new MCV Volvo BZLs and it struck me just how rattily they are! For a bus that has only been in service less that a month it is absolutely shambolic! I dread to think how they sound in six months to a years time! Similar story goes with Stagecoach East's batch for Cambridge P&R services; they rattled hideously from their introduction in May 2023 and have become significantly more vile to ride on in terms of ever increasing interior panel rattles.

To a further extent, recently I rode on one which had minor issue of interior corrosion just between the floor and to one side of the bus around the seat pillars. When that fleet is less that a year old! I dread to think how long that fleet will last in service. I just hope that MCV get their act together and to refrain from building bodies on the cheap and to actually make the buses attractive to ride on, and not just focus on exterior looks. Akin to Whitewash Tombs they say!

Is MCV build quality the New Optare?

 

[talldave]

What can they check? There might be no signs that a battery is about to blow. Not sure what battery technologies are being used, but this is a fascinating insight into vehicle fires:

 

[lookapigeon]

I have been watching some videos on the internet which comprise of journeys on Metroline's new MCV Volvo BZLs and it struck me just how rattily they are! For a bus that has only been in service less that a month it is absolutely shambolic! I dread to think how they sound in six months to a years time! Similar story goes with Stagecoach East's batch for Cambridge P&R services; they rattled hideously from their introduction in May 2023 and have become significantly more vile to ride on in terms of ever increasing interior panel rattles.

Perhaps the large amount of rattles are down to the poor road surfaces, and with electric buses being quiet it is more apparent, as it would have been masked by a diesel engine chugging away?
Although I was in a BYD Enviro 200 the other day (the same as mentioned on another thread) and was sat at the back. I realised that someone had cut through one of the back panels on both sides (no doubt to fix whatever was behind it) and done a bodge job to fix them back, gaffer tape on one side, and the other someone had tried to hold it in place with sealant, but sadly it didn't work as the panel was moving up and down. All this on a recently 71 plate bus (!).

 

[Edsmith]

I am slightly baffled by your comments. The various I have travelled on a very busy indeed.

We'll see but from what I've seen of the SL1 it's far from busy and I wouldn't expect the SL5 to be either.

 

[Goldfish62]

We'll see but from what I've seen of the SL1 it's far from busy and I wouldn't expect the SL5 to be either.

Well, considering the Commercial Director of a well-known and respected operator outside London who knows the territory told me he thinks the SL5 has great potential I would have to question what you base your conclusions on.

A faster link between Bromley and Croydon has long been called for so it baffles me why you don't think it will do well.

 

[Edsmith]

Well, considering the Commercial Director of a well-known and respected operator outside London who knows the territory told me he thinks the SL5 has great potential I would have to question what you base your conclusions on.

A faster link between Bromley and Croydon has long been called for so it baffles me why you don't think it will do well.

Faster? That remains to be seen. Leon Daniels probably knows what he's talking about as well and he has some interesting things to say in The Londoner.

What has been long called for is a Tramlink extension to Bromley.

 

[Goldfish62]

Faster? That remains to be seen. Leon Daniels probably knows what he's talking about as well and he has some interesting things to say in The Londoner.

So you don't think it will actually be any faster than the current links?

LD sometimes has some interesting opinions, but often not. It's usually all about him.

 

[Sussexwatch]

The problem with the SL5 is that it doesn't serve anywhere significant between Bromley and Croydon. It misses out Beckenham and West Wickham and mostly runs along residential suburban roads with low density housing. The only intermediate point listed on the circular Superloop map is Bethlem Royal Hospital, a specialist hospital which won't generate many trips. It is also one of the shorter Superloop routes so I wonder if it will eventually be combined with the SL3 and extended to Thamesmead which would provide useful cross Bromley links some of which were quite popular many years ago with the 725/726 Green Line services. Of course that would mean the SL5 would have to be double deck (or the SL3 single deck).

 

[Edsmith]

The problem with the SL5 is that it doesn't serve anywhere significant between Bromley and Croydon. It misses out Beckenham and West Wickham and mostly runs along residential suburban roads with low density housing. The only intermediate point listed on the circular Superloop map is Bethlem Royal Hospital, a specialist hospital which won't generate many trips. It is also one of the shorter Superloop routes so I wonder if it will eventually be combined with the SL3 and extended to Thamesmead which would provide useful cross Bromley links some of which were quite popular many years ago with the 725/726 Green Line services. Of course that would mean the SL5 would have to be double deck (or the SL3 single deck).

Exactly that, the convoluted route it has to take to avoid taking passengers away from Tramlink and I really can't see it being much quicker than the 119 between Croydon and Bromley.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Heading west, the change is simple because the penultimate stop on SL1, called North Finchley High Road, is the first stop on route SL10, so you wait where you're deposited! Heading east the interchange is made within North Finchley bus station, which whilst not attractive is at least sheltered from the elements. I didn't notice any audio or visuals highlighting where changes to the next Superloop segment should be made, so perhaps that could be considered.

Another Superloop observation is that I remain surprised they've chosen a route for the Bromley-Croydon segment that requires the use of single deck vehicles. In the interests of (kind of) serving Beckenham and (kind of) serving West Wickham, they've given themselves a capacity constraint they may live to regret when/if the service becomes very popular. I thought the concept was more about the 'end-to-end' than traditional London bus routes, which are focused on the 'via', in which case I'd have considered running via Hayes: there are about four different bus routings from Bromley South to Hayes, so pick the fastest! Admittedly, I'm no expert on the traffic conditions prevailing on the various approaches to Croydon, so maybe that was a significant factor.

There may be low bridges...

 

[Busaholic]

Well, considering the Commercial Director of a well-known and respected operator outside London who knows the territory told me he thinks the SL5 has great potential I would have to question what you base your conclusions on.

A faster link between Bromley and Croydon has long been called for so it baffles me why you don't think it will do well.

It's probably the only one of the true Superloop routes where a significant number of passengers will be travelling between the two terminal points, or near enough. It's also the shortest and quickest of the routes, with far fewer connections to any rail stations en route.

Another factor is the likelihood of passengers transferring to the SL5 for its full journey from the other SL routes at both Bromley and Croydon as per the old Green Line 725/6 given the lack of alternative public transport for these journeys.

Lastly, TfL's consultation feedback on the SL5 reveal that 58% of respondents say they are likely to use the new service rather than a car. I can only say, knowing how difficult and expensive car parking is in Croydon, that doesn't surprise me!

 

[johncrossley]

Lastly, TfL's consultation feedback on the SL5 reveal that 58% of respondents say they are likely to use the new service rather than a car. I can only say, knowing how difficult and expensive car parking is in Croydon, that doesn't surprise me!

It is not especially expensive, even compared to some town centre parking outside of Greater London. Centrale on weekdays charges a maximum of £5.50 per day. Woking town centre parking (for example) costs £6.50 for 4 hours, £8 for 6 hours and £12 for 7 hours. The Whitgift car park used to have a huge banner on its side advertising all day parking for £4.50 for early arrivals, meaning they couldn't fill it easily, at least on weekdays.

There is of course a rail connection between Bromley South and East Croydon, changing at Beckenham Junction. The Bromley South to Beckham Junction service runs four times per hour for much of the day, although during the middle of the day it is only half hourly. Therefore, during the more frequent period, that is not such a bad option. Obviously the fare system hinders such multi-modal journeys. Even if you got the 229 bus between Beckenham and Bromley, you have done most of the journey by rail.

Therefore, unlike most of the other Superloop sections, it actually has a rail alternative that is quite direct.

 

[Busaholic]

It is not especially expensive, even compared to some town centre parking outside of Greater London. Centrale on weekdays charges a maximum of £5.50 per day. Woking town centre parking (for example) costs £6.50 for 4 hours, £8 for 6 hours and £12 for 7 hours. The Whitgift car park used to have a huge banner on its side advertising all day parking for £4.50 for early arrivals, meaning they couldn't fill it easily, at least on weekdays.

There is of course a rail connection between Bromley South and East Croydon, changing at Beckenham Junction. The Bromley South to Beckham Junction service runs four times per hour for much of the day, although during the middle of the day it is only half hourly. Therefore, during the more frequent period, that is not such a bad option. Obviously the fare system hinders such multi-modal journeys. Even if you got the 229 bus between Beckenham and Bromley, you have done most of the journey by rail.

Therefore, unlike most of the other Superloop sections, it actually has a rail alternative that is quite direct.

There's a rail connection between anywhere and anywhere with a station, if you're prepared to change enough times! Please do tell me how you get from Bromley South to East Croydon by rail with one change at Beckenham Junction, as you imply. If you said by changing to Tramlink at BJ, okay, but it would cost an awful lot more and, as you say, the SE Rail service has deteriorated to half hourly when many are shopping. I also doubt that the journey time would compare with the SL5 unless each train and tram met each other perfectly.

I admit I haven't been there for about four years, but five hours in the Whitgift car park cost me £10 then, and I can't imagine it hasn't increased, particularly as the local residents have had the misfortune of one of the most toxic council leaderships in the country for many years past.

I think, by the way, you'll find it's the 227 bus route, as it was when I lived in Bromley, worked in Beckenham and used it on a daily basis back in the 1960s. All in all, you don't seem to have a familiarity with the area.

 

[johncrossley]

There's a rail connection between anywhere and anywhere with a station, if you're prepared to change enough times! Please do tell me how you get from Bromley South to East Croydon by rail with one change at Beckenham Junction, as you imply. If you said by changing to Tramlink at BJ, okay, but it would cost an awful lot more and, as you say, the SE Rail service has deteriorated to half hourly when many are shopping. I also doubt that the journey time would compare with the SL5 unless each train and tram met each other perfectly.

I admit I haven't been there for about four years, but five hours in the Whitgift car park cost me £10 then, and I can't imagine it hasn't increased, particularly as the local residents have had the misfortune of one of the most toxic council leaderships in the country for many years past.

I think, by the way, you'll find it's the 227 bus route, as it was when I lived in Bromley, worked in Beckenham and used it on a daily basis back in the 1960s. All in all, you don't seem to have a familiarity with the area.

Sorry, yes, 229 was a typo. Clearly I considered the tram as a rail link. Obviously it isn't the most obvious rail connection, but I was comparing it with other Superloops.

I used to work in Croydon so I used to see the banner advertising £4 all day parking every day! It can be seen on Google Street View:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/bTEVQP6EhrAtrNVA9 (2019). Later it became £4.50 https://maps.app.goo.gl/kubQ8tRT7Cpwkdj68.

The Whitgift car park is now under new ownership. From this web form, it can be seen that the price for all day parking is still only £4.50.

https://www.yourparkingspace.co.uk/...00&rental=short&end=2024-01-23T18:30:00+00:00

Maybe parking was expensive in the 80s or 90s, but with the addition of Centrale parking, and the decline in the town centre as a whole, there is now probably a glut of parking in central Croydon.

 

[Bishopstone]

Until last year I had periodic business in Bromley, travelling up from Sussex via the Brighton Main Line to East Croydon. I used the 119 bus which was always busy, and there appeared to be plenty of through traffic between the two town centres.

My perception of Tramlink is that the Addington line is favoured in the event of service disruption, with the Beckenham Junction branch being abandoned readily. On the basis of bitter experience, I wouldn’t contemplate using the tram as part of a Croydon-Bromley journey and am surprised this option is considered to be in realistic competition with a fast(er) bus.

So I’ll reiterate my opinion that SL5 will prove a big success within a few months, but clearly there are different opinions within the group; someone is going to get egg on their face, and it could be me!

 

[talldave]

It is not especially expensive, even compared to some town centre parking outside of Greater London. Centrale on weekdays charges a maximum of £5.50 per day. Woking town centre parking (for example) costs £6.50 for 4 hours, £8 for 6 hours and £12 for 7 hours. The Whitgift car park used to have a huge banner on its side advertising all day parking for £4.50 for early arrivals, meaning they couldn't fill it easily, at least on weekdays.

It is expensive if you factor in the fact that Croydon is a dump. It saddens me to say it as it was my childhood destination for clothes shopping. I can't fathom why anyone of sound mind goes there.

I've been unfortunate to have had a few meetings there recently and have mostly used the 468 bus - if you're on your own and going to be over an hour, the bus is cheaper. The only thing Croydon excels at is public transport. If you have a car, Bromley and Bluewater are no-brainer shopping alternatives.

 

[Busaholic]

Until last year I had periodic business in Bromley, travelling up from Sussex via the Brighton Main Line to East Croydon. I used the 119 bus which was always busy, and there appeared to be plenty of through traffic between the two town centres.

My perception of Tramlink is that the Addington line is favoured in the event of service disruption, with the Beckenham Junction branch being abandoned readily. On the basis of bitter experience, I wouldn’t contemplate using the tram as part of a Croydon-Bromley journey and am surprised this option is considered to be in realistic competition with a fast(er) bus.

So I’ll reiterate my opinion that SL5 will prove a big success within a few months, but clearly there are different opinions within the group; someone is going to get egg on their face, and it could be me!

I'll stick my neck out too and agree with your last sentence. After all, the rebranding to Superloop status of the 607 and X26 have brought increase in ridership levels of 15% and 41% respectively, assisted in the latter case by a 33% increase in frequency. Sounds to me like it too should go to a 12 minute daytime interval.

I'm glad you confirm my perception of plenty of continuing through traffic. As I've said, the consultation on the SL5 showed plenty of enthusiasm for the concept and intention to use it.

As regards Tramlink, the abandonment of route numbers for operational convenience gives more scope for keeping the Addington (and Wimbledon) sections better provided than the other two and shows, as far as I am concerned, that the 54 bus should never have been truncated from Croydon to Elmers End. It wasn't mentioned in the original blueprint, but I suspect that the SL5's final routeing is factoring in some people living in areas a little away from Tramlink but not too far from the bus transferring their allegiance.

 

[Mikey C]

Finally got to try out a Streetdeck Hydroliner today (A Metroline example on the 245) and was surprised that it had so many backwards seats downstairs. I've never seen a London double decker with 6 backwards seats downstairs before.

 

[Mark L]

I'll stick my neck out too and agree with your last sentence. After all, the rebranding to Superloop status of the 607 and X26 have brought increase in ridership levels of 15% and 41% respectively, assisted in the latter case by a 33% increase in frequency. Sounds to me like it too should go to a 12 minute daytime interval.

I'm glad you confirm my perception of plenty of continuing through traffic. As I've said, the consultation on the SL5 showed plenty of enthusiasm for the concept and intention to use it.

As regards Tramlink, the abandonment of route numbers for operational convenience gives more scope for keeping the Addington (and Wimbledon) sections better provided than the other two and shows, as far as I am concerned, that the 54 bus should never have been truncated from Croydon to Elmers End. It wasn't mentioned in the original blueprint, but I suspect that the SL5's final routeing is factoring in some people living in areas a little away from Tramlink but not too far from the bus transferring their allegiance.

The frequency uplift on the X26/SL7 was just shy of 100% - it’s now every 15 minutes for most of the day vice half hourly beforehand.

 

[MotCO]

My first trips on SL7 yesterday. Referencing my earlier point as to the increased frequency having an impact on the ability to board if the bus gets busy on rail strike days, happily I was able to board the first bus to arrive on this occasion. It was still full and standing room only when I boarded, and remained so until the first stop reached after I boarded, but was less crowded when standing than on previous occasions.

I was over at New malden this morning at around 10.30. Three SL7s bound for Croydon passed within minutes of each other with another 10 minutes behind. So much for x15 minute service

 

[Edsmith]

Until last year I had periodic business in Bromley, travelling up from Sussex via the Brighton Main Line to East Croydon. I used the 119 bus which was always busy, and there appeared to be plenty of through traffic between the two town centres.

My perception of Tramlink is that the Addington line is favoured in the event of service disruption, with the Beckenham Junction branch being abandoned readily. On the basis of bitter experience, I wouldn’t contemplate using the tram as part of a Croydon-Bromley journey and am surprised this option is considered to be in realistic competition with a fast(er) bus.

So I’ll reiterate my opinion that SL5 will prove a big success within a few months, but clearly there are different opinions within the group; someone is going to get egg on their face, and it could be me!

As a regular user of Tramlink I'm baffled by your comment, I've never seen the Beckenham Junction line abandoned in favour of the New Addington branch in fact trams generally stay on the same routes throughout the day. Generally the service on all lines is pretty good although obviously incidents can occur on any line and cause disruption.

And whilst TfL are quick to shout about increased ridership following the frequency increase on the SL7, formerly the X26, they conveniently fail to mention how much ridership has fallen on parallel routes like the 213,285 and 407.

 

[H&I]

The SL1 bus route is probably my favourite in London as it reminds me of Hong Kong's many long-haul express bus routes, many of which run on motorways, and is a nice departure from the all-the-stops local nature of London's bus routes.

However, does it need to call at the Eley Trading Estate bus stop? Relatively few people use that bus stop, which is already served by the 34, and calling at the bus stop requires the bus to cut across the lanes leading to and from slip roads on either side of the stop.

 

[London Trains]

And whilst TfL are quick to shout about increased ridership following the frequency increase on the SL7, formerly the X26, they conveniently fail to mention how much ridership has fallen on parallel routes like the 213, 285 and 407.

Whilst I can't comment on the 407, I can assure you ridership has not fallen much on the 213 and 285.

 

[CyrusWuff]

However, does it need to call at the Eley Trading Estate bus stop? Relatively few people use that bus stop, which is already served by the 34, and calling at the bus stop requires the bus to cut across the lanes leading to and from slip roads on either side of the stop.

I suspect one of the main reasons for it stopping there is its proximity to Arriva's Edmonton garage. As such, it's a fairly common point for driver changeovers.

It also provides access to the eponymous Trading Estate and the Retail Park on the opposite side of Angel Road, and a last point to interchange with the 444 towards Chingford.

 

[Edvid]

One of the ieTrams (IE4, LJ23 FHV) was testing the Crystal Palace pantograph last week. Photo courtesy of a Tangytango poster.

IE4 (LJ23FHV)

Explore vjaska's 2315 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[H&I]

One of the ieTrams (IE4, LJ23 FHV) was testing the Crystal Palace pantograph last week. Photo courtesy of a Tangytango poster.

IE4 (LJ23FHV)

Explore vjaska's 2315 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

The Bus Routes In London Wiki has suggested that these buses are going to enter service in November 2024. For a bus, introduction into service seems to be very slow.

 

[Busoccultation]

I suspect one of the main reasons for it stopping there is its proximity to Arriva's Edmonton garage. As such, it's a fairly common point for driver changeovers.

It also provides access to the eponymous Trading Estate and the Retail Park on the opposite side of Angel Road, and a last point to interchange with the 444 towards Chingford.

SL1 is operated by Arriva's Palmers Green garage like the 34 & 102 as such the driver changeovers take place at the stop by the junction to Green Lanes.