London Buses Discussion

[telstarbox]

Sorry, not sure how I missed that!

 

[Robertj21a]

Leon Daniels is leaving TfL. I wonder if that will generate a few policy changes before too long - the absence of LED screens on buses, the 15H Routemasters etc

 

[plcd1]

Citymapper now wants to introduce a regular night bus (every Friday and Saturday night), called CM2, which runs between Aldgate East and Highbury & Islington via Shoreditch and Dalston. They want to start by the end of August or early September. They work together with the Impact Group of Tower Transit

https://medium.com/@Citymapper/cm2-night-rider-our-first-commercial-bus-route-d9d7918be899
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...-serving-east-london-partygoers-a3592086.html
https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/20/16002800/citymapper-bus-route-location-service

Apparently it, the CM2, starts tonight - 8th September 2017. £1 flat fare using contactless payment and Phone payment, no Oyster or concessionary tickets.

 

[Mikey C]

Apparently it, the CM2, starts tonight - 8th September 2017. £1 flat fare using contactless payment and Phone payment, no Oyster or concessionary tickets.

Surprised there's enough of a gap in the bus and night tube network for this venture, or that TfL wouldn't have stepped in themselves if the gap was shown to be there?

 

[plcd1]

Surprised there's enough of a gap in the bus and night tube network for this venture, or that TfL wouldn't have stepped in themselves if the gap was shown to be there?

Well Citymapper have dug into the search data from their app and found what appears to be a gap. Clearly it's about "replacing" the Overground from Highbury (night tube Vic Line) to Dalston (despite there being the 277 bus) but also on to Hoxton and Shoreditch. I think the frequency is way over the top for a short night bus route and I wonder if they've considered how horrific congestion can be in Shoreditch at night. Once the Night Overground starts in December some of the trade will go and when it reaches Highbury some time next year (May probably) it'll be dead in the water. Still I am sure Citymapper will learn a lot even from a shortish duration operation. I suspect the lack of Oyster and Travelcard acceptance will prove nightmarish for the poor bus drivers on the CM2.

 

[matt_world2004]

Well Citymapper have dug into the search data from their app and found what appears to be a gap. Clearly it's about "replacing" the Overground from Highbury (night tube Vic Line) to Dalston (despite there being the 277 bus) but also on to Hoxton and Shoreditch. I think the frequency is way over the top for a short night bus route and I wonder if they've considered how horrific congestion can be in Shoreditch at night. Once the Night Overground starts in December some of the trade will go and when it reaches Highbury some time next year (May probably) it'll be dead in the water. Still I am sure Citymapper will learn a lot even from a shortish duration operation. I suspect the lack of Oyster and Travelcard acceptance will prove nightmarish for the poor bus drivers on the CM2.

I dont know how they can refuse encts tickets given the regulations

 

[Busaholic]

I dont know how they can refuse encts tickets given the regulations

I've half a mind to go and find out: now, where's that walking stick?!

 

[PermitToTravel]

Presumably they'll accept ENCTS passes until 23:00

 

[matt_world2004]

Presumably they'll accept ENCTS passes until 23:00

Any anytime on weekends ...

 

[PermitToTravel]

Oh of course!

I wonder if they're intentionally not advertising them in case any confused holders think it's a TfL product and assume it's not valid.

Are they allowed to turn away ENCTS holders from 23:00 to 00:00 on Friday nights?

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

Is the CM2 mentioned on the TfL bus stop signs?

 

[Busaholic]

Are they allowed to turn away ENCTS holders from 23:00 to 00:00 on Friday nights?

I would say 'yes' (in theory) but TfL may have had a word about this before agreeing not to oppose the application.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It would almost certainly be illegally anticompetitive for TfL to accept them on their own services round the clock but only reimburse other operators during the statutory times - and the availability of reimbursement is surely what decides acceptance.

 

[matt_world2004]

It would almost certainly be illegally anticompetitive for TfL to accept them on their own services round the clock but only reimburse other operators during the statutory times - and the availability of reimbursement is surely what decides acceptance.

Tfl do it for trains. Like the AGA and tfl rail. They parallel each other and the pass is not accepted at certain times on AGA

 

[PermitToTravel]

Is the distinction that the funding is there (see Chiltern, GW, or any of the TOCs accepting these passes at any time) but GA refuse to carry people before 09:30 unless they're paid more?

 

[Be3G]

In other London bus-related news, the latest service change document* shows an awful lot of cuts in night bus frequencies. A lot of the reductions are on routes that now have a night tube service, but the changes are precipitous nonetheless, e.g. N20 Fri/Sat being downgraded from 6bph to 2bph. Woe betide anyone who got in to the habit of using it to save walking home from their local tube station. I also note the N5's frequency is being cut in half during weeknights too.

* Note that the document changes on a roughly weekly basis whilst the URL stays the same, so anyone reading this post in a few days' or more time won't necessarily see what I'm reporting on here.

 

[Deerfold]

* Note that the document changes on a roughly weekly basis whilst the URL stays the same, so anyone reading this post in a few days' or more time won't necessarily see what I'm reporting on here.

Here you go:

View attachment bus-service-changes.pdf

Some quite stunning cuts in there.

 

[plcd1]

Is the CM2 mentioned on the TfL bus stop signs?

I haven't been anywhere near the route since it started so don't know for certain. TfL will usually display services at stops even if they are run under London Service Permit conditions. Many commuter coach services have their own stops with the "TfL Coaches" roundel, TfL style timetable panels and route numbers displayed at the stop. I can't see why the CM2 would be an exception to standard practice.

 

[Be3G]

Here you go:

View attachment 34967

Thanks!

 

[higthomas]

I'm very surprised about some of those weekday night bus cuts! Two services are being cut from every 15 minutes to very 30! It really is massive.

 

[Mikey C]

I'm very surprised about some of those weekday night bus cuts! Two services are being cut from every 15 minutes to very 30! It really is massive.

Yes those weeknight cuts are a bit of a shocker.I wonder if Uber is taking a large chunk of the market?

 

[Antman]

Yes those weeknight cuts are a bit of a shocker.I wonder if Uber is taking a large chunk of the market?

Surely the Friday/Saturday night reductions are a direct result of the 24 hour tube service?

 

[Deerfold]

Surely the Friday/Saturday night reductions are a direct result of the 24 hour tube service?

But they're talking about weekday cuts, not the weekend cuts.

 

[Busaholic]

The first cutback on night routes came very quietly back at the end of last year, around the time of the intro of the second tranche of the weekend Night Tube, but wasn't generally noticed or commented on because it involved a couple of routes, like the N176, that couldn't possibly have been impacted by the Night Tube. It was obviously only a matter of time before more general cuts in service happened, especially to weekend services, though it may be of interest that the only increase is on the N207 between Hayes By-Pass and Uxbridge, seven nights a week. Now remind me, who is the MP for Uxbridge?

 

[Antman]

But they're talking about weekday cuts, not the weekend cuts.

Most of the night changes are linked to the 24 hour tube and the rest are presumably in accordance with demand. For example a x15min night service on the 6 does seem a bit excessive.

 

[Mojo]

A lot of the weekend cuts (I specifically remember the N20 as it's one I use often) were proposed in a document released before the original start date of Night Tube of Sept 2015. When it was announced that Night Tube wouldn't be happening then they also said the proposed service reductions were postponed indefinitely (rather than happening when Night Tube was launched), so I suppose they are just catching up with themselves now, but also announcing a number of weekday cuts too.

 

[Mikey C]

Most of the night changes are linked to the 24 hour tube and the rest are presumably in accordance with demand. For example a x15min night service on the 6 does seem a bit excessive.

Presumably they wouldn't have gone to every 15 minutes in the first place unless there was reasonable demand...

And it's also about providing a "turn up and go" service, the night buses don't just cater for party goers, they also are how late and early shift workers get to and from work

 

[Antman]

Presumably they wouldn't have gone to every 15 minutes in the first place unless there was reasonable demand...

And it's also about providing a "turn up and go" service, the night buses don't just cater for party goers, they also are how late and early shift workers get to and from work

Bearing in mind that much of the 6 is also covered by other night routes I very much doubt whether a 15 minute frequency was ever justified.

You can't expect turn up and go services at night, you need to consult a timetable.

 

[Deerfold]

Bearing in mind that much of the 6 is also covered by other night routes I very much doubt whether a 15 minute frequency was ever justified.

I doubt they'd have lasted 13 years at that frequency without some reason.

You can't expect turn up and go services at night, you need to consult a timetable.

In London I very rarely consult a timetable when using night buses (I'll often check real-time predictions once I'm at a stop). Outside London, I'd always check one.

 

[Antman]

I doubt they'd have lasted 13 years at that frequency without some reason.



In London I very rarely consult a timetable when using night buses (I'll often check real-time predictions once I'm at a stop). Outside London, I'd always check one.

There are a lot of areas where supply doesn't match demand, for example 4bph on the N21 and 321 between New Cross and Eltham is way over the top whilst South Norwood has no night service at all.