I've seen a few mentions of DB going ahead with introduction of a direct London-Frankfurt rail service (via the Channel Tunnel of course), but I also remember reading that the service was proposed and even greenlit back in 2010? I can't find any explicit confirmation of whether it's actually happening or not, so is it, and if so is there a timeframe for when it'll start?
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
London-Frankfurt service happening?
- Thread starter TW1306
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
VC00
Member
I recall there being an issue with the ICE trains door heights and health and safety which meant they couldn't operate through the channel tunnel
nlogax
Established Member
Haven't seen any reference to a resurrection of this DB proposal. Do you have a link?
They brought one to St Pancras on October 19th 2010 - and surely they're the same dimensions as the Eurostar trains?
I really do wish they'd consider it. For one, some competition for Eurostar would be great, and secondly it gives other options for long-distance travel instead of having to go to Brussels.
There are probably loads of rumours and myths, but I'd heard that they were not going to be able to come all the way to St Pancras and might have instead terminated at Stratford International. That might have hurt sales if true (and I have no idea if that was even true!). Also that they switched production of new trains to be used elsewhere in Germany.
The upside would obviously be that Stratford International actually got an international train service at last!
(Looking at my Google Photos, it showed the signage they brought with the suggested services starting in December 2013!!)
VC00
Member
They brought one to STP back in 2010, but the low doors meant that evacuation in the tunnels wouldn't be possible with passengers and brexit has probably killed off any efforts to bring the service to life
I thought the train they brought was just for show, and the trains they were intending to use were new-build trains exactly like the new Eurostar trains.
But, yes, Brexit has probably killed off the service. I mean, there was a time that you may have had lots of people in finance wanting to go from London to Frankfurt, but Brexit means many of them got one way tickets and are now living in Frankfurt permanently!
More destinations, by any operator, would be nice though.
In 2018 DB said a London-Germany service would not be on the agenda "for the foreseeable future" due to "changes" in the "economic environment". I've not seen anything since then.
I seem to recall one technical issue being suggested was that the multi-voltage ICE3s capable of operating internationally were quite unreliable, and as a result DB needed to use more rolling stock than anticipated to reinforce other services to improve reliability. I can't find any reference to that though.
I seem to recall one technical issue being suggested was that the multi-voltage ICE3s capable of operating internationally were quite unreliable, and as a result DB needed to use more rolling stock than anticipated to reinforce other services to improve reliability. I can't find any reference to that though.
The volume of business travellers using Eurostar has plummeted over the last few years due to Brexit making work at the other end impossible for many without a visa, and COVID changing the way we do business meetings. And for whatever reason very few British people go to the western side of Germany (ie. within 5h of London) for tourism so the tourist traffic would be very one-way. When you also consider that local intra Schengen would not be permitted, and the huge cost of customs/border infrastructure that would be required, I don’t see how it would make any sense to provide a through service to anywhere in Germany. When an easy transfer to Thalys/ICE in Brussels only adds 30 mins or so to the journey time.
I can't find any specific links I'm afraid, but I'm sure I saw at least a couple of mentions in threads here in the past week or two. Maybe it was because of the Eurostar/Thalys merger?
Without derailing (ha) into political arguments that's definitely a shame to hear, especially with the need to cut down on shorter-distance flights I would've thought having more extensive connections into mainland Europe via CTRL would be a good move (yes I know there's other considerations and whatever but the principle is sound).
nlogax
Established Member
Ah, you had my hopes up there for a moment
What would be great is sleeper services to take you a lot further, as is being introduced slowly throughout Europe.
I can't imagine how a sleeper train might ever be considered safe for the tunnel though!
This is then beginning to fall into speculative travel ideas and wishful thinking...
Fragezeichnen
Member
Oh for goodness sake. Not another thread on this. They seem to pop up on a weekly basis. No other topic generates the amount of speculation, all based on a publicity stunt over a decade ago.
Is it not going to happen. Not now, not next year, not in 5 years.
Is it not going to happen. Not now, not next year, not in 5 years.
- There are no trains technically capable of the trip
- There is no business case
- There is no suitable stations
- There is no border control facility
- There is no organisation willing to take the risk of the setup costs of a service
- There is no political will to overcome the above problems
The merger of Thalys/Eurostar has got lots of rail journalists very excited, but I've yet to see any plans from either Eurostar or DB directly that they are seriously looking at new services.
My understanding was that the new ICE trains do meet the latest channel tunnel requirements, although I could be wrong.
However, the biggest sticking point by far is that Köln hbf and Frankfurt hbf are very busy, and taking space out to build the border facilities isn't practical. Not when covid and brexit are suppressing demand.
My understanding was that the new ICE trains do meet the latest channel tunnel requirements, although I could be wrong.
However, the biggest sticking point by far is that Köln hbf and Frankfurt hbf are very busy, and taking space out to build the border facilities isn't practical. Not when covid and brexit are suppressing demand.
I don't think it's really right to say there are no trains technically capable of the trip. The ICE3 Class 407 order was specifically placed with serving the corridor in mind. The other reasons are real though.
There is one organisation that is interested in making a competitor to Eurostar happen and that is GetLink which owns the tunnel, but it's not clear whether they have the muscle. Their interest is to ensure the capacity is used as you could probably double the number of trains going through it currently.
Their latest idea was to procure their own fleet and lease them out, to remove start-up costs for entrants – but I'm not sure whether there's been any movement on that since they first floated it.
There is one organisation that is interested in making a competitor to Eurostar happen and that is GetLink which owns the tunnel, but it's not clear whether they have the muscle. Their interest is to ensure the capacity is used as you could probably double the number of trains going through it currently.
Their latest idea was to procure their own fleet and lease them out, to remove start-up costs for entrants – but I'm not sure whether there's been any movement on that since they first floated it.
I think weekly is somewhat of an exaggeration - although there should be one single thread for all speculation about enhanced services through the tunnel.
A big problem has been articles like this: https://www.cntraveller.com/article/eurostar-thalys-new-destinations which have speculated about potential destinations post-merger in order to get attention-grabbing headlines.
Dren Ahmeti
Member
Incorrect.
The 374s have German OHL capability, but I’m not sure if they have PZB/LZB.
Ironically, the Tyne and Wear Metro uses PZB!
Will be made easier when everything transfers over to ETCS in the next few years though.
Attachments
Very interesting “System tension“ screen shot.
The HS1, Belgium, France, Germany and Netherlands power supply voltage options are clear, but what are ‘ET’ and ‘GV’ - where do they apply geographically? And in what circumstances?
Thank you.
The HS1, Belgium, France, Germany and Netherlands power supply voltage options are clear, but what are ‘ET’ and ‘GV’ - where do they apply geographically? And in what circumstances?
Thank you.
ET I would guess is Eurotunnel (the wire is higher than usual for the shuttles). GV not sure about.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
GV might be "Grande Vitesse" for when on the French high speed lines?
For this, I am thinking the the F and B might be the conventional lines in those countries?
For this, I am thinking the the F and B might be the conventional lines in those countries?
Belgium is 1.5KV conventional and 25KV for HS lines, although GV for French LGVs, then F 25KV for conventional lines is a strong possibility.
Out of interest, is the system change done by the driver or handled automatically by either trackside beacons or with GPS?
Tbh rather than expanding, CTRL services are contracting, the Ski Train, Avignon services have gone to history.
i’m surprised Brussels/Amsterdam survives, it would be easier to curtail london services to a Lille shuttle. Do customs and then onward connections on Euro-Domestic services Like Thalys etc and vv, rather than thru to UK running to Europe.
Could cut down the 373’s then… lets face it, they are getting older and I doubt more 374s will be built and even smaller fleets of new stuff dont make sense.
i’m surprised Brussels/Amsterdam survives, it would be easier to curtail london services to a Lille shuttle. Do customs and then onward connections on Euro-Domestic services Like Thalys etc and vv, rather than thru to UK running to Europe.
Could cut down the 373’s then… lets face it, they are getting older and I doubt more 374s will be built and even smaller fleets of new stuff dont make sense.
Fragezeichnen
Member
It is done manually as far as I am aware. This video shows the process:
History? Are you sure they won't be coming back at all? I thought they were quite popular pre-covid.
Can't do customs on-board, for about the 500th time (see all the other threads). Stopping at Brussles or Lille en-route disrupts the journey and makes it operationally painful. Rotterdam is a big business hub for the port and Amsterdam is a big international hub and also popular with Brits on holiday for many reasons.
The 374s are just standard Siemens Velaro units, having slightly different classes but fundamentally based on the same family of designs would not be so much of a problem. Especially as Eurostar units don't operate doubled up, so you wouldn't even need them to interwork with each other, just offer comparable performance.
Dren Ahmeti
Member
Correct on all fronts, GV is “Grand Vitesse”, for the LGVs due to differing wire heights on conventional vs LGV lines.
Done by the driver, as well the blocking of 2xGUs in the Channel Tunnel due to power limitations for 374s.
ET is switched approaching the tunnel portals, switching out 2 GUs in the process iirc.
GV is used on LGV Nord, opposite process to the ET.
Thanks very much, didn't realise the LGVs vs Linges Classiques (I've probably spelt it wrong) had different wire height!
I think this is a bit of a stretch. Return Rotterdam and Amsterdam Eurostars were only introduced in 2020 and have been wildly popular. A fourth daily train pair will begin next month and the aim is to have five shortly after that. That's equivalent seat capacity of about 24 daily return flights.
There were ski trains in the 2021-22 season though they were only available as part of a charter package. I don't know what the situation is with direct south of France services or whether they will return.
But the main thing is that St Pancras is busier than ever and struggling to process passengers, and the trains are rammed – anecdotal ticket prices seem to have increased significantly compared to pre-pandemic levels.
I thought Belgium was 3KV? Just to make it as complicated as possible, NL being 1.5KV….
I think St Pancras gets overly crowded because people assume they should turn up many hours in advance as they would at an airport, when they simply cannot take people through until an hour or so before their departure. You'll see many people join the long queue, which keeps growing, until staff go along and establish that some people are three or four hours early. They're told to leave the queue and go have a wander (get some food, shop or whatever) and come back.
St Pancras 'airside' really isn't big enough, and perhaps Eurostar needs to emphasise to passengers not to arrive too early (but I get that they can't make people wait too long, as then people will cut it fine and miss their train).
St Pancras 'airside' really isn't big enough, and perhaps Eurostar needs to emphasise to passengers not to arrive too early (but I get that they can't make people wait too long, as then people will cut it fine and miss their train).
- Status