London midland 150's - reallocations

[WatcherZero]

Only 20 less seats on a 2x150 than on a 180.

 

[northwichcat]

But a major capacity reduction!

The DaFT say that it's 7x150 for 3x180, assuming one unit unavailable per day, as is now, then one would hope that the 180 diagrams are scheduled for 3x150/2 units. Or 1 2 car + 1 3 car unit...

To DfT one carriage equals one carriage. They see 4x150s as direct replacement for 4x156s. The 180s had 10 carriages in use at most and one backup unit so DfT see that as 5x150s replace the in service trains and 1x150 replaces the backup train.

The Blackpool North to Hazel Grove service replaced the St-Annes-on-Sea to Greenbank service, which was 2x156s. A 180 has a few less seats than 2x156s but has more standing capacity, so for a like for like switch the 180s should be either 2x156s or 142+142+153 but the former is the sensible option for obvious reasons.
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Only 20 less seats on a 2x150 than on a 180.

GMPTE once said the 185s would be perfectly adequate for Manchester to Scotland as they only have 5 less standard class seats than a 220. I think anyone who uses the service now would disagree with that statement.

 

[Nym]

Only 20 less seats on a 2x150 than on a 180.

And at least 20m less usable passenger space, about 100m between cabs in a 180 and the total length of 2x150 is 80m, since it's standing room only before it even gets to Bolton every morning for the 180 diagrams, standing space is just as important.

Or 115m of train versus 80m of train... put it in terms of length and it sounds a lot worse than seats.

 

[WatcherZero]

Not been on a 180 in peak, but when ive seen them offpeak its rather alarming 5 carriage train with about 15 people on board. 185 diagrams ive seen are far far busier offpeak.

 

[northwichcat]

Not been on a 180 in peak, but when ive seen them offpeak its rather alarming 5 carriage train with about 15 people on board. 185 diagrams ive seen are far far busier offpeak.

That's the problem with Northern using them on Victoria services off-peak. Victoria station is much quieter at off-peak times whereas Piccadilly remains busy all day.

I've not seen the Hazel Grove-Manchester 180 service leaving Piccadilly but I know it's usually carrying around 100 when heading north from Stockport and that's well before 5pm.

 

[swt_passenger]

Deleted, major brain fade yesterday...

 

[northwichcat]

DfT actually said that 7 x 150s replace the 180s, and at a normal utilisation of 85% that would allow for 6 units, (12 carriages) to be in service every day.

No they definetly said 12 carriages:

The arrival of the 28 carriages in Northern Trains will then lead to the following subsequent cascades:
*8 x Class 150 carriages will enable 8 x Class 156 carriages to cascade from Northern Trains to East Midlands Trains (EMT) which will be used by EMT to internally cascade more Class 158 units onto their Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool services.
*12 x Class 150 carriages will enable 15 x Class 180 carriages currently sub-leased by Northern Trains from East Coast to be returned to East Coast.
The remaining 8 x Class 150 carriages provide additional capacity for Northern Trains.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....v.uk/foi-responses/698001/698004/f0007261.pdf

 

[TheBigD]

Does anyone know which EMT services will be strengthened by the arrival of the 4 x 156 from Northern?

Unless 100% availability is achieved I can't see there being enough to allow all Liverpool-Nottingham's to be 4 car as well as extending the 1352 ex Liverpool through to Norwich.

 

[tbtc]

Does anyone know which EMT services will be strengthened by the arrival of the 4 x 156 from Northern?

Unless 100% availability is achieved I can't see there being enough to allow all Liverpool-Nottingham's to be 4 car as well as extending the 1352 ex Liverpool through to Norwich.

There are a handful of services that are already four coaches (at least north of Nottingham), but certainly more are needed

 

[TheBigD]

There are a handful of services that are already four coaches (at least north of Nottingham), but certainly more are needed

Yes, 2 in the morning and 3 in the evening, of which one is provided by terminating the 1352 at Notts.

 

[swt_passenger]

No they definetly said 12 carriages:

Yes, my apologies. Major error on my part, I think I was completely led astray by a post from a Northern staff member elsewhere who reckoned the 7 x 142s were replacing the 180s...

Should have relied on some of my own earlier explanations posted in this forum...


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Does anyone know which EMT services will be strengthened by the arrival of the 4 x 156 from Northern?

Unless 100% availability is achieved I can't see there being enough to allow all Liverpool-Nottingham's to be 4 car as well as extending the 1352 ex Liverpool through to Norwich.

You could effectively get 100% availability of the four extra units, depending on exactly how many other 156s EMT have already got in use, as the extras will presumably be merged with the existing diagramming.

For example, assuming 'the junction' is currently correct, and they have 11 already, and if perhaps they currently use only 9 per day, the extra 4 might allow them to use 13 of 15?

 

[northwichcat]

The 4x156s that EMT will get are to replace 4x158s on Skegness service, which will allow 4 extra 158s for Liverpool-Norwich. EMT have also said they will be more trains in service once all their Sprinters are refurbished as a result of trains not being away for refurbishment.

 

[TheBigD]

1352 is now shown as going through to Norwich from 24/10.