London North Orbital Railway

[LE Greys]

We aren't looking for a simple A-B (or rather StA-H) shuttle here, we are looking for a through route capable of carrying freight as well as passenger. The eventual route, using the Varsity alignment in this case, would be a complete circuit around London (well, if you had a ferry). Southend-Shenfield-Whitham-Stansted Airport-Cambridge-Sandy-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford-Reading-Guildford-Redhill-Tonbridge-Strood-Sittingbourne-Sheerness. I'm not suggesting a service from Southend Victoria to Sheerness, this is to cut down on the number of radial journeys in and out of London. The idea it to use sections of the route to link up the main lines, running straight through the heart of the commuter belt in many places. Crucially, it has to be heavy-rail the whole way, so that it would be possible to run on and off the line to larger towns nearby and so that the line could carry freight. An inner orbital is less likely, but would be a good use of what is essentially now an isolated branch line.

What I wish I could do is build a line directly on top of the M25, but that's about as likely as me being able to abolish the car.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1) Morrisons petrol station
2) Fleetville Junior School
3) UK HQ of CAMRA

It was the petrol station, thank you.

 

[mr_jrt]

@mr_jrt how many platforms would a new St Albans have in your plans?

I'd suggest 2 on Thameslink (slow lines), 2 on the MML (fast lines), 2 for terminating metro services from the south (extended freight lines form Hendon), and 2 for the Orbital line. So 8-ish then.

No it doesn't. About a third of it heads south of the river or to Acton and the Western. That is why the container trains generally head direct via Primrose Hill, and the aggregates trains go via Gospel Oak, where they are joined by more aggregates and container trains from Thameside.

Fair enough. Consider me educated.

Birmingham is huge. Glasgow is huge. Watford is not. Hatfield doesn't even have a centre. Besides, most people don't want to travel between the centres; the start and end of most journeys is out of town in a housing / retail / industrial estate. This is the modern car based economy, like it or not.

True about the sizes, but You seem to be forgetting the point of the network aspects. Case in point: imagine a happy little worker bee who lives in Croxley but works in Luton. Currently they have to drive as it's the only viable way of getting to and from work. Imagine now that they can take a service from Croxley to St. Albans, then interchange to Thameslink and travel to Luton. Suddenly they have a viable rail option for most of their journey, probably needing only a short local bus ride at either end. Or my old commute. It'd have been nice to, instead of getting off the bus at Bushey Station to travel to Euston, stay on it to Watford Junction, then catch a train to Hatfield, and hop onto a Thameslink train to Cambridge there.

Ah, imagery. That's 400 new apartments, at £250k a pop minimum, that are mostly built now on land that cost Linden Homes £23m. That's over £100m insurmountable.

I meant insurmountable as in moving the new platforms south, or just not building the chord.

*chuckles* It's a bike track, not even wide enough for two bikes. Almost every reopening that has actually happened in the past two decades has had railway lines on it already.

It used to have a line on it, so if the trackbed hasn't been breached, of course it'd be wide enough. Admittedly the lines were single track...but single line sections can be worked around. Certainly more capacity than no-line sections

Leaving aside the fact that moving St Albans City station south and away from the city centre would annoy just about everyone except those who live on the south east side (*raises arm*),

Never said it'd be cheap..and St. Albans City is hardly in the city centre, it's probably as far away as my proposed station. You might have noticed I propose a new station in north St. Albans, which I think is viable given the increased distance, and would probably reduce the distance for a great swath of St. Albans.

the land costs would be PHENOMENAL, the MML would have to be realigned and slowed down considerably

Perhaps, but given I'd expect almost everything to stop here, that's not so great an issue. I'd argue that the site would possibly be straighter than the existing station - itself on a very curvy alignment which could be straightened out once the platforms were gone.

the new curve on the Abbey line would be about 5mph, and the lot would cost upwards of half a billion, I can see this has a lot going for it.

Yes, I don't like that curve either. You could divert around the south of the housing, but that takes you away from a good catchment area. I suspect some other solution would need to be found.

...and there's no need for the sarcasm. :roll:

 

[Bald Rick]

...and there's no need for the sarcasm. :roll:

It's the lowest form of wit. Which is why I never do it.

 

[jon0844]

For the record, besides the service road at The Galleria (which is also open to cars, FWIW) there IS the Alban Way - covered by trees, so you wouldn't easily see it from Google. It's not very wide there, but could potentially take the tram - which then stops at a station at the north end of the Galleria (near the cinema and restaurants) then turns off to proceed up to the swimming pool and Hatfield town centre, before continuing on to Hatfield station.

I still think some back gardens would need to be cut back, but as I know someone who lives there they have a very big garden. Sure, they'd probably not want to lose part of it - but if the money was right then a compulsory purchase might not meet too much resistance.

I've walked the entire length of the Alban Way, and there are only a few pinch points - but it does end up in the middle of nowhere at both ends, so at least the tram idea could work in that it can divert off and share the main road in parts.

 

[ntg]

What really amazed me is that there haven't been any sincere proposals for anything like this over the past few decades. Comparing North and South London (diagrams like this for example) the need for a East-West rail link north of London seems obvious. And it isn't like there are adequate bus routes to cover it, other than some disjointed and unreliable Arriva and Uno buses.

For the record, besides the service road at The Galleria (which is also open to cars, FWIW) there IS the Alban Way - covered by trees, so you wouldn't easily see it from Google. It's not very wide there, but could potentially take the tram - which then stops at a station at the north end of the Galleria (near the cinema and restaurants) then turns off to proceed up to the swimming pool and Hatfield town centre, before continuing on to Hatfield station.

I still think some back gardens would need to be cut back, but as I know someone who lives there they have a very big garden. Sure, they'd probably not want to lose part of it - but if the money was right then a compulsory purchase might not meet too much resistance.

I've walked the entire length of the Alban Way, and there are only a few pinch points - but it does end up in the middle of nowhere at both ends, so at least the tram idea could work in that it can divert off and share the main road in parts.

If anything like this was to happen I think any planners would see greater benefit in abandoning the Alban Way upon arrival at Hatfield. The path through Hatfield is only wide enough for a single track at most - there are certainly some dodgy points (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hatfield&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl - the original bridge here has been removed and there are building on the track bed). Plus it makes more sense to have a tram divert split to loop around the town center and business park before joining at the station.

 

[jon0844]

You are right in that the business park (and the Uni buildings/campus) would make more sense (especially for me, seeing as I live off the business park!), with the tram then going down via the District Centre/bus station, over to the Galleria and up to Asda/swimming pool/town centre, then the station.

Key areas would include St Albans, the Galleria, the business park, the University and associated buildings, two train stations and Hatfield House.

You'd still need some compulsory purchasing I'm sure, but it would not only be feasible but arguably profitable, especially if linking the MML and ECML. Trams could run late, or even all through the night, and it would remove a lot of buses that do partly help cause congestion (on account of the limited space on the roads, and buses blocking the road - even if it's down to bad parking).

The tram system could easily be extended further if proven to be a success, but I doubt the authorities are that bothered about even looking into such an idea, as the buses - however unreliable they are - are working right now, so why change anything?

 

[Lee_Again]

For me, any East-West route would/must include the following, if only for revenue generating reasons. Here's my route...

Oxford - tourists
Bicester - shopping
Milton Keynes - population/WCML/commuters/shopping
<join MML> location ??
Luton - population/MML/commuters
<leave MML>
Luton Airport - obvious
<join ECML> location - probably about where Langley is.
Stevenage - population/ECML/commuters
<along ECML, up over the flyover>
<join CML, but head south (or go to Cambridge and reverse)>
Stanstead - obvious


And if money is no object, how about...

Gatwick>Reading>Oxford>Milton Keynes>Luton Airport>Stevenage>Cambridge>Stanstead>Stratford>East Croydon>Gatwick

One BIG circle, linking all 5 major South East airports and most major rail corridors.

 

[tbtc]

And if money is no object, how about...

Gatwick>Reading>Oxford>Milton Keynes>Luton Airport>Stevenage>Cambridge>Stanstead>Stratford>East Croydon>Gatwick

One BIG circle, linking all 5 major South East airports and most major rail corridors.

No Heathrow?

 

[Lee_Again]

Heathrow? typo, sorry.

Gatwick>Heathrow>Reading>Oxford>Milton Keynes>Luton Airport>Stevenage>Cambridge>Stanstead>Stratford>Ea st Croydon>Gatwick

No going East from Reading and reversing at Heathrow. I'd build a link and enter Heatrow from the East and head West along the GWML as far as Oxford.

Also, no stopping at Little Village on the Green. Fast as you can, all around the circle. Yes, stopping trains mixed in, but they don't have to do a loop.

BTW. 5 Airports
Gatwick
Heathrow
Luton
Stanstead
City

Sorry Oxford, Cambridge, Southend, Manston, Farnborough. Your day will come.

 

[Firestarter]

I'd suggest 2 on Thameslink (slow lines), 2 on the MML (fast lines), 2 for terminating metro services from the south (extended freight lines form Hendon), and 2 for the Orbital line. So 8-ish then.

Fair enough. Consider me educated.

True about the sizes, but You seem to be forgetting the point of the network aspects. Case in point: imagine a happy little worker bee who lives in Croxley but works in Luton. Currently they have to drive as it's the only viable way of getting to and from work. Imagine now that they can take a service from Croxley to St. Albans, then interchange to Thameslink and travel to Luton. Suddenly they have a viable rail option for most of their journey, probably needing only a short local bus ride at either end. Or my old commute. It'd have been nice to, instead of getting off the bus at Bushey Station to travel to Euston, stay on it to Watford Junction, then catch a train to Hatfield, and hop onto a Thameslink train to Cambridge there.

I meant insurmountable as in moving the new platforms south, or just not building the chord.

It used to have a line on it, so if the trackbed hasn't been breached, of course it'd be wide enough. Admittedly the lines were single track...but single line sections can be worked around. Certainly more capacity than no-line sections

Never said it'd be cheap..and St. Albans City is hardly in the city centre, it's probably as far away as my proposed station. You might have noticed I propose a new station in north St. Albans, which I think is viable given the increased distance, and would probably reduce the distance for a great swath of St. Albans.

Perhaps, but given I'd expect almost everything to stop here, that's not so great an issue. I'd argue that the site would possibly be straighter than the existing station - itself on a very curvy alignment which could be straightened out once the platforms were gone.
Yes, I don't like that curve either. You could divert around the south of the housing, but that takes you away from a good catchment area. I suspect some other solution would need to be found.

...and there's no need for the sarcasm. :roll:

Having straighter platforms would also increase chances of EMT stopping some of there services (if the revenue problem between FCC and EMT could be sorted) if only if its during the peak. With the platforms now extended and as a consequence on a blind curve especially PLT3/4 can't see them stopping there in the future, defiantly not the HST's

 

[LE Greys]

If anything like this was to happen I think any planners would see greater benefit in abandoning the Alban Way upon arrival at Hatfield. The path through Hatfield is only wide enough for a single track at most - there are certainly some dodgy points (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=hatfield&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl - the original bridge here has been removed and there are building on the track bed). Plus it makes more sense to have a tram divert split to loop around the town center and business park before joining at the station.

Which is roughly what I originally said, although still thinking of heavy rail. I was looking at a route separating from the Alban Way about a mile west of Hatfield, running just north of Colney Heath, crossing the A1 near Junction 3 South, running alongside South Way (the A1001) and joining the ECML (presumably with a flyover). Trains could then run right through Hatfield to WGC, until they finally quadruple the section through the tunnels to connect with points north. The junction is a bit awkward, sandwiched between the Travellers' Lane roundabout and an electrics factory. There is also a cemetery near South Way, which will have to be avoided. Still, it is mostly open fields.