MKJai
Member
I am wondering if LNR is going to do anything or not to solve the overcrowding problem for Saturday night trains back to Northampton. This happens for a long time already and it is frustrating to see this after a good weekend day out.
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London Northwestern Overcrowding to Northampton every Saturday Night
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What train was the picture taken on?
It isn't easy. There is two track railway so only a slow service can run, and I doubt it is easy to predict which train will be busy.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It used to be the case that all trains on a Saturday between about 2100 up to but not including the 0015 were 12 car. This was about right though some would have some standees to Watford. Reducing down to 8 was never going to work.
Kite159
Veteran Member
And is that overcrowding in all coaches or just the rearmost coaches, with the front coaches being lightly loaded because people don't walk along the platform. (Wisdom of the Norm, "there is only ever one set of doors on a train, and even if departure time is 5 minutes away, board the first set of doors as the train might leave without you"
I managed to get a private table seat on the 19:46 Euston to Crewe on a Friday evening in December, boarding with a couple minutes to spare simply by walking to the front of the train. Rear coaches had standees.
I managed to get a private table seat on the 19:46 Euston to Crewe on a Friday evening in December, boarding with a couple minutes to spare simply by walking to the front of the train. Rear coaches had standees.
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The trains coming in need to be 12 coach in order for them to go back as 12 coach.
I don't think anyone actually had that view. If there is a relevant view you disagree with, let's hear what it is and why you disagree with it and we can discuss it constructively.
I have long predicted an increase in remote working would result in more longer distance traffic and more leisure traffic, and I believe the evidence now suggests I was right. Others are entitled to disagree, of course. Certainly travel patterns have changed.
West Midlands Trains probably won't want to put more coaches on unless people are actually being left behind.
I did easily get a bay of four to myself on the 1746 from Euston on Saturday evening by walking to the very front. Just one coach back was extremely busy; most people are not prepared to walk the length of the train. I had expected the train to be busier, given the 1743 was cancelled and they both called at Milton Keynes.
lxfe_mxtterz
Member
The fast SWR Portsmouth Harbour services out of Waterloo often look like that too on a Saturday night, even in the front most carriage - particularly when it's a 5 carriage Class 444. Downright miserable and unpleasant and (arguably) better to wait for the following 8 carriage Class 450 which won't be as packed.
I regularly accompany friends to Euston on a Saturday evening to 'see them off' on their train home to either Milton Keynes or Northampton. I wasn't there yesterday but I have seen some absolutely hideous overcrowding on some Saturdays. It does help if you go right to the very front of the train but often even that doesn't work. The smallest amount of disruption is enough to tip things over the edge.
MKJai
Member
The photo was taken on the 2309 departure from Euston, but this is a very typical problem every Saturday night after the last Avanti northbound train. You can just choose a random Saturday to have a look in Euston.
I don't think LNR are running any 12-car trains for Birmingham-Euston except the morning peak (I don't know the situation in the evening peak, correct me if I am wrong). They are definitely forgetting how crowded their Saturday services can be.
Good spot. On Saturday nights this picture can be taken in any car of their Euston-Northampton services, not just the rear one. I was standing in the rearmost coach because it is closest to the Northampton way out, before that I had already walked through the whole platform to see if there was any better coach.
Declassifying the first class does not help at all.
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It's hard to find trains on Saturdays that aren't crush loaded.
The LNWR's into Euston on weekends have been rammed since Avanti became unreliable.
MKJai
Member
Before Dec 22 the overcrowding Saturday LNR services were much worse in the daytime. People can hardly get on any services in MKC.
Also @JonathanH mentioned that there is two-track railway only on Saturday nights, if so this arrangement definitely does not fit the current service demand when there is much more leisure travel.
william.martin
On Moderation
If you ever fancy a private carriage walk to the end of the platform at Euston 
Every night after about 2200 I think, isn't it? Would love for that to be changed!
The last train out of Euston that makes it all the way to Hanslope Jn on the fasts is the 21:46 to Crewe. All departures after that use the slows for some or all of the way. I think I once worked out that it's a two track railway for more of the week in aggregate than it's a four track one!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Actually they don't, you can ship a load of units down to Camden Bank and strengthen them from Euston. Though it is probably easier just to stick an extra 4 on everything going south from Northampton after about 8 which would then mean they go back as 12!
It's not hard. It was the case for years. This is getting dangerously into the classic RUK "the railway can't possibly do something it's been doing for years".
There is one reason for it, and one alone - cost cutting.
1946 (Brum, suspect 4 come off at Northampton) and 2353 (Northampton) are both 12 so you may want to aim for those.
The Planner
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It would only end up with more hours taken midweek.
MKJai
Member
The 2146 Euston to Crewe is for Mon-Fri only, Saturday last departure is earlier
It's the midweek ones that irk me, to be honest!
Yes - the very night where you'd expect it to be later! The one saving grace of Saturday nights is that (semi)fast services generally run FL until the very last one.
But the post I was responding to was referring to the ~22:00 mid-week 2 track railway.
100% this.
Imagine the outcry from the Thames Valley punters if every train from Paddington to Reading took a minimum of an hour after 9:40pm!
Milton Keynes is about 25% further from Euston than Reading is from Paddington.
That still doesn't justify the rubbish evening service that Milton Keynes and other places on the WCML get.
Short of thinning out the stopping service at the intermediate stations, it isn't really obvious what could be done.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Flighting would be the obvious way, though there are limits.
Reduce the number of hours of engineering access to something closer to what other mainlines see. Or at the very least make it so that it's only a two track railway where and as a particular section of line is actually being worked on - e.g. Euston to Watford, Watford to Ledburn etc.
The WCML is currently planned for the benefit of the civil engineers, not the passengers.
Facing Back
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Why is that the WCML needs so much more work that it’s equivanents? Is it more knackered?
And why would NR plan for the benefits of engineers over the TOCS and passengers in this case and not on the ECLM, WML etc?
bramling
Veteran Member
The southern end of the ECML sees its fair share of engineering work as well, but the impact is reduced because of the Hertford Loop being available as a diversion. There is an essentially cyclical timetable of engineering access which continues constantly, however for those travelling to Stevenage and beyond this does reduce the impacts. There is still a fair bit of disruption on Saturday nights / Sunday mornings though.
BluePenguin
On Moderation
What is flighting?
The capacity of a two-track line is mostly limited by faster trains catching up slower ones. There are a few ways this can be mitigated but all come at a cost.
1. Flighting, you send "flights" of trains of the same or similar speed one after the other. This increases overall capacity but at the cost of a less-regular timetable.
2. Stop-skipping, rather than running a slow all-stations service you run multiple semi-fast services stopping at different stations. This is good for longer distance travellers, but it can make local travel difficult or impractical.
3. Building/using loops so the faster service can overtake the slower one. The problem is with conventional siginalling you either need very long loops or you add unessacery delay to the slow train.
1. Flighting, you send "flights" of trains of the same or similar speed one after the other. This increases overall capacity but at the cost of a less-regular timetable.
2. Stop-skipping, rather than running a slow all-stations service you run multiple semi-fast services stopping at different stations. This is good for longer distance travellers, but it can make local travel difficult or impractical.
3. Building/using loops so the faster service can overtake the slower one. The problem is with conventional siginalling you either need very long loops or you add unessacery delay to the slow train.
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