London Out-Boundary Travelcard -- Can I use the Zone1-6 section first?

[hkstudent]

I am planning to go for an outing to a town out of London Travelcard Zone 6 but served by TfL buses.
Is it permissible for me to buy an Outboundary travelcard originated from the town, and use that for a journey from London to a London zone 6 station, then take a TfL Bus to the destination? For "return" journey, take the train all the way from the town to home.

(It cost more to buy a Zone 1-6 Day Travelcard + Boundary ticket and also be more expensive to buy a Home - Destination Day Return ticket.)

 

[Hadders]

No, you can't use the outward portion between the origin and Travelcard Boundary after you've used the return portion.

 

[JonathanH]

No, you can't use the outward portion between the origin and Travelcard Boundary after you've used the return portion.

Clearly that is correct but the OP is suggesting that they won't use the return portion, instead travelling by bus to the outboundary location and then using the inward portion on a train.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Didn't an all zones travelcard give use of all TfL buses even outside the zones?

 

[paul1609]

I am planning to go for an outing to a town out of London Travelcard Zone 6 but served by TfL buses.
Is it permissible for me to buy an Outboundary travelcard originated from the town, and use that for a journey from London to a London zone 6 station, then take a TfL Bus to the destination? For "return" journey, take the train all the way from the town to home.

(It cost more to buy a Zone 1-6 Day Travelcard + Boundary ticket and also be more expensive to buy a Home - Destination Day Return ticket.)

It would be helpful if you told us your actual journey.

 

[JonathanH]

It would be helpful if you told us your actual journey.

I don't think we need to know the exact journey.

My take on the OP's request was to buy an outboundary travelcard issued at, say, Slough.

They would then travel from their starting location within London to, say, Hounslow and use the 81 bus to get to Slough, as permitted by the validity of travelcards. Having finished their business there, they would go to Slough station and return to London by train.

Now, if they were to only use buses up to the point they travel through the barriers at Slough, the barriers are unlikely to reject the travelcard. It is more questionable as to what happens if they pass through barriers within London before travelling on the bus (eg to get to a Zone 6 station) and then attempt to use the travelcard at Slough.

 

[hkstudent]

I don't think we need to know the exact journey.

My take on the OP's request was to buy an outboundary travelcard issued at, say, Slough.

They would then travel from their starting location within London to, say, Hounslow and use the 81 bus to get to Slough, as permitted by the validity of travelcards. Having finished their business there, they would go to Slough station and return to London by train.

Now, if they were to only use buses up to the point they travel through the barriers at Slough, the barriers are unlikely to reject the travelcard. It is more questionable as to what happens if they pass through barriers within London before travelling on the bus (eg to get to a Zone 6 station) and then attempt to use the travelcard at Slough.

So technically, an out-boundary travelcard is a return ticket to the boundary of Zone 6 + a day travelcard of London Zone 1-6?

 

[JonathanH]

So technically, an out-boundary travelcard is a return ticket to the boundary of Zone 6 + a day travelcard of London Zone 1-6?

Yes, that is the principle - a ticket bought out-boundary, which entitles the purchaser to make one journey from the outboundary station to London, have full access to services in Zone 1-6 within the validity of a travelcard, and one journey back to the outboundary station, in that order.

For what it is worth, however, I have once done what you suggest with a Epsom to London Zones 1-6 travelcard - I travelled from Redhill to Coulsdon and then to Epsom by TfL bus, 405 then 166, and then made a journey from Epsom to travel within London for the rest of the day.

 

[hkstudent]

Yes, that is the principle - a ticket bought out-boundary, which entitles the purchaser to make one journey from the outboundary station to London, have full access to services in Zone 1-6 within the validity of a travelcard, and one journey back to the outboundary station.

For what it is worth, however, I have once done what you suggest with a Epsom to London Zones 1-6 travelcard - I travelled from Redhill to Coulsdon and then to Epsom by TfL bus, 405 then 166, and then made a journey from Epsom to travel within London for the rest of the day.

And, there's no order of use, like, you have to use the outbound leg of the return ticket before using the Travelcard section?

 

[matt_world2004]

I am planning to go for an outing to a town out of London Travelcard Zone 6 but served by TfL buses.
Is it permissible for me to buy an Outboundary travelcard originated from the town, and use that for a journey from London to a London zone 6 station, then take a TfL Bus to the destination? For "return" journey, take the train all the way from the town to home.

(It cost more to buy a Zone 1-6 Day Travelcard + Boundary ticket and also be more expensive to buy a Home - Destination Day Return ticket.)

No it's not permitted but since the travelcard is made of paper ,does not go through a reader on the bus. The chance of getting caught doing this is infatesimally small

 

[JonathanH]

And, there's no order of use, like, you have to use the outbound leg of the return ticket before using the Travelcard section?

The outbound leg of the return ticket is not valid once the Travelcard section has been used. However, there is a potential proviso that a TfL bus can be used to travel to/from the outboundary station - eg it would appear reasonable to use the 81 bus to travel from Langley to Slough before travelling from Slough to London by train.

 

[Haywain]

Try this:

The outbound leg of the return ticket is technically not valid once the Travelcard section has been used...

...within the Travelcard zones.

 

[yorkie]

I am planning to go for an outing to a town out of London Travelcard Zone 6 but served by TfL buses.
Is it permissible for me to buy an Outboundary travelcard originated from the town, and use that for a journey from London to a London zone 6 station, then take a TfL Bus to the destination? For "return" journey, take the train all the way from the town to home.

This would be fine:
- Travel by train, to the relevant location
- Travel by bus back into the Zones

Obviously the use of the train both ways, would not be valid, due to using the portions in reverse.

Using the bus first, then the train, is dubious. I can see arguments for and against, but I'd advise against it. (That said, if you exclusively travelled by bus to the relevant location, that would perhaps be a stronger position and I think that would probably be OK)

 

[JonathanH]

This would be fine:
- Travel by train, to the relevant location
- Travel by bus back into the Zones

I agree that it may be reasonable to travel by (one) bus back into the Zones but onward travel within the Zones is surely invalid once the return journey has been made to the outboundary station. Moreover, at the outboundary station, the ticket will be retained by the barriers (although I understand it is possible to ask to keep the ticket for TfL bus travel).

Try this:

...within the Travelcard zones.

Yes, absolutely. I will delete the qualifier which gives a misleading impression.

 

[akm]

OP hasn't said which extra-London station they are using; but certainly for the Slough example being used, a non-discounted adult could use contactless for any of the travel discussed, in any order, completely legitimately, and be charged no more than the daily cap (which is currently equal to the ODTC cost).

In fact, the contactless daily cap covers indefinitely many trips between the outboundary station and the zones, making it better value than the ODTC for some travellers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Without knowing the proposed journey it is hard to say, but if the OP is only intending to make a journey in one direction between the town and the boundary, they may find it cheaper to buy a bog standard travel card and a BZ6-destination (or vice versa) single.

onward travel within the Zones is surely invalid once the return journey has been made to the outboundary station

No. An outboundary travelcard is essentially a Travelcard plus a return to BZ6. The Travelcard can be used even after the outboundary return had been completed, providing you buy a new ticket to the boundary or (if available, e.g. from Slough, Watford or Potters Bar) take a TfL bus

 

[matt_world2004]

OP hasn't said which extra-London station they are using; but certainly for the Slough example being used, a non-discounted adult could use contactless for any of the travel discussed, in any order, completely legitimately, and be charged no more than the daily cap (which is currently equal to the ODTC cost).

In fact, the contactless daily cap covers indefinitely many trips between the outboundary station and the zones, making it better value than the ODTC for some travellers.

Thats a point, is there any locations served by a London bus where the nearby station doesn't except contactless? the only one I can think of is Dorking at the moment.

 

[Haywain]

Without knowing the proposed journey it is hard to say, but if the OP is only intending to make a journey in one direction between the town and the boundary, they may find it cheaper to buy a bog standard travel card and a BZ6-destination (or vice versa) single.

The OP states that the BZ6 combination would be more expensive and I suspect that a railcard my be involved which would rule out the contactless option.

 

[JonathanH]

No. An outboundary travelcard is essentially a Travelcard plus a return to BZ6. The Travelcard can be used even after the outboundary return had been completed, providing you buy a new ticket to the boundary or (if available, e.g. from Slough, Watford or Potters Bar) take a TfL bus

However, isn't it the case that the barriers will usually be set up to 'collect' the Travelcard on arrival at the outboundary station so an explicit request needs to be made to retain the ticket for further use? If you know, for example, that you need to make two journeys to London, a BZ6 to destination return should be bought for the middle journey to the outboundary station.

If what you say is correct (which I accept it might be) then how is it different if you do what the OP suggests and use the travelcard in the zones first (which 'Haywain' has confirmed is not valid).

 

[Tetchytyke]

If what you say is correct (which I accept it might be) then how is it different if you do what the OP suggests and use the travelcard in the zones first (which 'Haywain' has confirmed is not valid).

You cannot use the 'return' portion of the outboundary bit before the 'outbound' portion. This is as with any return ticket.

You can bus/walk/fly from A to BZ6 then use the Travelcard to your heart's content. You can then travel by train from BZ6 to A. You cannot then go from A to BZ6 by train without buying a new ticket to BZ6. You can alternatively bus/walk/fly back to BZ6 then continue to use your Travelcard to your heart's content.

The fact barriers may retain the ticket is important to remember but doesn't affect validity.

In short, you cannot use an outboundary Travelcard in reverse, i.e. BZ6-A-BZ6. A new ticket from A to BZ6 is required.

 

[Dibbo4025]

Thats a point, is there any locations served by a London bus where the nearby station doesn't except contactless? the only one I can think of is Dorking at the moment.

Hinchley Wood, Claygate, Sunbury, Ashford and Staines for a start. There's probably more too

 

[JonathanH]

You cannot use the 'return' portion of the outboundary bit before the 'outbound' portion. This is as with any return ticket.

You can bus/walk/fly from A to BZ6 then use the Travelcard to your heart's content. You can then travel by train from BZ6 to A. You cannot then go from A to BZ6 by train without buying a new ticket to BZ6. You can alternatively bus/walk/fly back to BZ6 then continue to use your Travelcard to your heart's content.

The fact barriers may retain the ticket is important to remember but doesn't affect validity.

In short, you cannot use an outboundary Travelcard in reverse, i.e. BZ6-A-BZ6. A new ticket from A to BZ6 is required.

No one in this thread is suggesting you can use an outboundary travelcard or any other return ticket in reverse.

The OP's request was about [Zone 1-6] -> Bus to A -> Train from A -> [Zone 1-6] (which 'Haywain' has confirmed is not valid) against [Zone 1-6] -> Train to A -> Bus from A -> [Zone 1-6] which you are saying is perfectly valid but appears to be a very similar thing.

 

[Kilopylae]

You cannot use the 'return' portion of the outboundary bit before the 'outbound' portion. This is as with any return ticket.

You cannot use the return portion of the ticket and then proceed on to later use the outbound portion. You can use the return portion having not used the outbound portion, i.e. use a return from A to B as though it were a single from B to A.

An outboundary travelcard is essentially a Travelcard plus a return to BZ6. The Travelcard can be used even after the outboundary return had been completed

Right, so why would the Travelcard only become valid after making the outbound journey?

The bus journey from London to the town is covered by the Travelcard and the train journey back from the town to London is covered by the return portion of the ticket. I don't see what's invalid about what the OP is suggesting.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Hinchley Wood, Claygate, Sunbury, Ashford and Staines for a start. There's probably more too

Denham's another one, served by TfL route 331 (Uxbridge - Ruislip). This also leads to the situation whereby you can top up an Oyster card at one of the shops in Station Parade, but not at the station itself.

 

[hkstudent]

The OP states that the BZ6 combination would be more expensive and I suspect that a railcard my be involved which would rule out the contactless option.

Yes, a railcard is involved which I have not to think of the contactless option at all.
And, more importantly, the Out-Boundary Travelcard has a Weekend Super-OffPeak option (which is very close to London Z1-6 Off-Peak Travelcard fare, while BZ6 ticket doesn't have Super Off-Peak option)

The station I am intended to go is north of London.

 

[Kilopylae]

I'm fairly confident your whole intended journey is valid. The train from London to the station in Zone 6 is covered by the Travelcard validity, the bus from the station in Zone 6 to the town is covered by the Travelcard validity, and the train back from the town to London is a valid use of the return portion of the ticket.

There is no rule that says you cannot use the return portion of a ticket and never use the outbound portion (there is a rule that you can't use the return portion and subsequently use the outbound portion, but that's not what you're suggesting). AFAIK there is no rule that says you must use make the outbound journey to the Zones before an outboundary Travelcard is valid within the Zones; it's still a Travelcard, it's just a Travelcard with additional validity. You don't have to use that additional validity.

 

[MikeWh]

Given that the return ticket is from A to BZ6 and back, surely it is valid to use the out portion as long as the rtn portion hasn't been used by train?

 

[Hadders]

I suspect the OP is travelling to somewhere like Potters Bar which benefits from very cheap Super Off Peak fares which will undercut using Contactless or Oyster PAYG (even with a Railcard attached).

I agree with @yorkie in that it would be dubious if the OP travelled by train from, for example, Kings Cross to Hadley Wood by train, then by bus to Potters Bar and then by train from Potters Bar to Kings Cross.

 

[yorkie]

Given that the return ticket is from A to BZ6 and back, surely it is valid to use the out portion as long as the rtn portion hasn't been used by train?

Yes I think so.

Whether or not the Travelcard element can be used on a train before the origin to BZ6 outward leg is perhaps debateable; I'm open to arguments for and against.

 

[Kilopylae]

Whether or not the Travelcard element can be used on a train before the origin to BZ6 outward leg is perhaps debateable; I'm open to arguments for and against.

I can't imagine the debate. A Travelcard is valid for use as a Travelcard; the fact that it's an outboundary one extends the validity but the ticket remains a Travelcard.

What are the arguments against?