London Overground and rail replacement buses

[keiran]

I'm posting this under "London Underground" as the issue is about TFL and their approach to rail replacement busses, which presumably is consistent with London Underground.

On 12 May I was travelling from West Croydon to Wapping, and saw on the TFL website on the "status" page that the Overground was closed from West Croydon to New Cross Gate, with rail replacement busses in operation.

I spoke to the assistant at the Overground station who advised that the busses would be departing from "B5 " bus stop, and I saw a sign indicating this, too

I waited at B5 bus stop (which was in the main Croydon bus station) for nearly an hour, with no sign of the bus.
I asked several members of staff at the bus station, as well as at the Information Desk.
No one seemed to know anything about the replacement bus service (Usually, elsewhere, I find that rail replacement services have staff in attendance as well as numerous/frequent busses

Eventually I got 2 local buses and the tube back to Wapping - and spent 2.5 hours and 2 lots of fares in the process.

I complained to TFL (as much on behalf of the residents/visitors to Croydon who are very unlikely to complain) , explaining the problems in concise detail, and today received a response from a customer care person saying they'd ask the "rail replacement bus team" to investigate and offering me a paltry £10 refund for the inconvenience.

I've replied, asking for the outcome of the investigation and a more appropriate refund gesture.

Do esteemed forumites think there can be such a thing as a "rail replacement bus team" ?

Does TFL pay the bus company to provide the replacement service? (and if so where would that money then go if no service was provided?)

 

[bcarmicle]

Do esteemed forumites think there can be such a thing as a "rail replacement bus team" ?

Yes - I believe this is managed in house within TfL by the London Buses team. I don't know if it's a dedicated team though, or potentially just staff whose duties include managing rail replacement.

Does TFL pay the bus company to provide the replacement service? (and if so where would that money then go if no service was provided?)

It would still go to the bus company by default, though presumably TfL would demand to be repaid the amount (and potentially contractual penalties) if no buses ran once they became aware.

 

[Mojo]

The situation on London Overground would be slightly different to LU, as under the Track Access Agreement with Network Rail there is a methodology for recovery of lost revenue and additional costs such as provision of replacement buses associated with planned engineering work (Schedule 4). This is why typically you are more likely to see replacement buses on London Overground whereas in recent years replacement buses have become more limited on London Underground with customers encocuraged to use alternative LU/ordinary bus routes instead of replacement buses.

 

[ballas]

Yes - I believe this is managed in house within TfL by the London Buses team. I don't know if it's a dedicated team though, or potentially just staff whose duties include managing rail replacement.

There is a dedicated Rail Closures Planning team in Public Transport Service Planning which manages all this, there is also a dedicated contract manager for rail replacement buses.

 

[bicbasher]

The issue is that New Cross Gate to West Croydon isn't under LO's remit, so GTR are in charge of organising RRBs from NXG using their sub-contractor Transport UK as a legacy of Southern operating the majority of rail services on the slow lines, although they no longer do. However LO have organised RRBs from Crystal Palace to West Croydon in the past when trains have terminated at Crystal Palace and one occasion have done a NXG to West Croydon service.

Recently, the last couple of RRBs have only operated between New Cross Gate and Crystal Palace, leaving passengers to use the 157 to reach Anerley, Norwood Junction and West Croydon. I suspect the reason GTR have done this is to cover the section of line shared with LO which is the Victoria to London Bridge service. Southern no longer provide a regular service to Penge West and Anerley on the slow, so I doubt they want to pay for a RRB that covers stations they no longer serve bar 2 trains per day.

Personally I think London Overground should replace GTR, which would ensure that a regular RRB service is arranged, along with the use of iBus which is used on their services.

LO however organise the RRBs on the Clapham Junction branch in addition to the ELL core.

 

[RJ]

Personally I think London Overground should replace GTR, which would ensure that a regular RRB service is arranged, along with the use of iBus which is used on their services.

In the past, TfL have run the ELL service. 3bph between New Cross Gate and Anerley, with absolutely heaps and heaps of running time, a reliance on ticket acceptance on local buses south of Anerley and the stop for Honor Oak Park being relocated to a few hundred metres from the station.

When run by Southern, the buses don’t have the time to sit around at bus stops for 8 minutes at a time and there’s usually a through service between New Cross Gate and West Croydon.

I'm posting this under "London Underground" as the issue is about TFL and their approach to rail replacement busses, which presumably is consistent with London Underground.

On 12 May I was travelling from West Croydon to Wapping, and saw on the TFL website on the "status" page that the Overground was closed from West Croydon to New Cross Gate, with rail replacement busses in operation.

I spoke to the assistant at the Overground station who advised that the busses would be departing from "B5 " bus stop, and I saw a sign indicating this, too

I waited at B5 bus stop (which was in the main Croydon bus station) for nearly an hour, with no sign of the bus.
I asked several members of staff at the bus station, as well as at the Information Desk.
No one seemed to know anything about the replacement bus service (Usually, elsewhere, I find that rail replacement services have staff in attendance as well as numerous/frequent busses

Eventually I got 2 local buses and the tube back to Wapping - and spent 2.5 hours and 2 lots of fares in the process.

I complained to TFL (as much on behalf of the residents/visitors to Croydon who are very unlikely to complain) , explaining the problems in concise detail, and today received a response from a customer care person saying they'd ask the "rail replacement bus team" to investigate and offering me a paltry £10 refund for the inconvenience.

I've replied, asking for the outcome of the investigation and a more appropriate refund gesture.

Do esteemed forumites think there can be such a thing as a "rail replacement bus team" ?

Does TFL pay the bus company to provide the replacement service? (and if so where would that money then go if no service was provided?)

Don’t rely on staff to give you information! A mix of journey planners and live departure boards are a more reliable source.

On Sunday the replacement bus service only ran between New Cross Gate and Crystal Palace. West Croydon was only served at the start and end of service. £10 is pretty good going given the price of journeys in London.

And yes, there is a rail replacement team.

 

[keiran]

Thanks for replies - There's a lot of very knowledgeable forumites /?insiders

I did, indeed, look at all sources of information - in particular the TFL status page, a screenshot of which I attach.

Any innocent traveller would read that there was a replacement service from New Cross Gate to West Croydon, and vice versa - unless there's some detail I'm missing in the wording.


Also, a confounding issue may have been that there's currently a daily replacement service for part of the tram network in Croydon, and I wonder if the TFL request to the bus company for a replacement service on Sunday between NCG and WC somehow got mixed up or overlooked

 

[bicbasher]

Sunday 26th May is when LO services don't serve stations on the West Croydon section of line again. This time around, they're diverting the trains to Crystal Palace and TfL claim that there is a RRB between Crystal Palace and West Croydon.

It doesn't mention if LO or Southern will be organising the buses this time around.

On Monday 27th May, Southern are organising late night replacement buses between London Bridge and West or East Croydon which replace their late night services.

 

[keiran]

Finally received a response to my complaint, which I paste below and an increased £20 gesture (big deal!)

The episode doesn't show TfL, Southern Trains, or the bus staff at Croydon Station in a good light!

"""
I can confirm that we didn’t procure Rail Replacement Buses for the closure.

Southern Railway provide these replacement buses and on this occasion they did not run due to Southern trains running which allowed customers to travel to destinations in Croydon.

Unfortunately this information was not passed onto our web team and therefore the information on our website was not amended.
However feedback has been provided to the team. Southern Rail may be able to provide more insight in to the communication issues.

We are very grateful for your contact as any possible incorrect information or anomalies on our website need to be investigated and corrections made.
The Replacement Bus information on the website was posted on the understanding this was a service in place by Southern Rail, but we were not informed of the change in sufficient time.
"""

 

[Travelmonkey]

I have been thinking about this am looking on bouncing round and was hoping to take the night overground to or from Shoreditch High street>Canada water on July 14th but it seems that the line is down on that weekend will tfl be laying on night RRB or should I try and work my way in on the night bus network,

 

[bluegoblin7]

Night buses. As stated on the TfL website for that weekend.

Replacement buses operate during the daytime only,

Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line, DLR & Tram status updates

Realtime Tube, Overground, Elizabeth line, DLR & Tram travel updates.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[bicbasher]

I have been thinking about this am looking on bouncing round and was hoping to take the night overground to or from Shoreditch High street>Canada water on July 14th but it seems that the line is down on that weekend will tfl be laying on night RRB or should I try and work my way in on the night bus network,

The annoying thing is the N47 doesn't follow the day route, so it looks like you'll have to get the N35 and change at London Bridge for the N47 or N381.

 

[RJ]

The annoying thing is the N47 doesn't follow the day route, so it looks like you'll have to get the N35 and change at London Bridge for the N47 or N381.

The 47 runs 24 hours a day and links Shoreditch with Canada Water at night.

 

[bicbasher]

The 47 runs 24 hours a day and links Shoreditch with Canada Water at night.

I didn't realise the N199 replaced the N47.

 

[Travelmonkey]

The 47 runs 24 hours a day and links Shoreditch with Canada Water at night.

Thanks for the heads up, I may just pivot my plans and go somewhere else,