London Overground departure board changes

[VauxhallandI]

I hear LO are removing the times on their departure boards and replacing them with minutes until the next train.

I'm not sure this will be a popular move in places where there is a half hourly service.

What is the thinking behind this, is it a thin veil to disguise late trains?

Is there new equipment being put in just for this? The current system doesn't work very well saying trains are on time when I know they are not as they passed on the down line yet never mind started on the up line back to me.

This will result in the mins to train number having very long minutes

 

[swt class 450]

I hear LO are removing the times on their departure boards and replacing them with minutes until the next train.

I'm not sure this will be a popular move in places where there is a half hourly service.

What is the thinking behind this, is it a thin veil to disguise late trains?

Is there new equipment being put in just for this? The current system doesn't work very well saying trains are on time when I know they are not as they passed on the down line yet never mind started on the up line back to me.

This will result in the mins to train number having very long minutes

TFL seem to be trying to make everything as difficult as possible. So they are getting rid of paper timetables and now getting rid of departure board times. They seem to want to run London Overground just like London Underground and forget that it is actually a National Rail service. As you say i dont think this will really work especially on the lines that have a much less frequent service. People need to know the actual times of their trains.

 

[aleph_0]

The existing equpiment can already cope, e.g. at ELL core stations, if this is what you mean: https://www.flickr.com/photos/56897352@N02/16077620089/

I believe SWT also do this at some platforms (e.g. CLJ towards WAT), which also makes a huge amount of sense.

At wapping, the upstairs departure boards still shown times, and I think downstairs might cycle between mins/times.

As to whether it's a good idea, it depends on context and location. At platform level, at stations with a turn-up-and-go service, this makes sense. But the WA Overground network would be less suitable, with different stopping patterns, etc.a

Edit: Also, do you have any citations for the plans/which stations they want to change.

 

[IKB]

The scrolling platform PIS screens won't need new equipment.

'Countdown' minutes seem to be generally used when services are very close together and all heading to the same place - e.g. Clapham Junc London bound platforms - to avoid confusion.

Not sure its appropriate where trains are spaced more than five to ten minutes apart or a mix of destinations.

Londoners are used to a TFL 'minute' on the underground often being two, three or four in duration!

 

[JaJaWa]

I believe Connex first introduced counting down in minutes on the digital displays, most operators now use them within Zone 6, their introduction by First Capital Connect on Thameslink is one of the more recent.

 

[VauxhallandI]

The existing equpiment can already cope, e.g. at ELL core stations, if this is what you mean: https://www.flickr.com/photos/56897352@N02/16077620089/

I believe SWT also do this at some platforms (e.g. CLJ towards WAT), which also makes a huge amount of sense.

At wapping, the upstairs departure boards still shown times, and I think downstairs might cycle between mins/times.

As to whether it's a good idea, it depends on context and location. At platform level, at stations with a turn-up-and-go service, this makes sense. But the WA Overground network would be less suitable, with different stopping patterns, etc.a

Edit: Also, do you have any citations for the plans/which stations they want to change.

No citations, all from Huggy Bear

 

[NSE]

I prefer it with the LO style service. Makes it easier when you're in a rush. Honestly, I don't always know the time if I'm in a rush, if I look up and see 2 minutes. I'm less likely to rush. If I see 12:46, I may not have the time to find the time and work it out, so I'll just keep going to the platform. Others will likely rush further. I'm also not surprised that they are giving up on paper timetables. I only like them as I collect them to nosy through them for the maps and the odd services and service information. All my non-rail friends just have apps and websites to check it all now. Hell, even my nan proudly checks train and bus times on her iPhone.

 

[FOH]

LO put it on the fast line platforms too at New Cross Gate where there is sometimes a gap of an hour between services!

 

[adrock1976]

On a sideways deviation from the main topic, will the common section of the Govia Thameslink branded stations (e.g. London Bridge, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, etc) be receiving the countdown timer of how many minutes the next train is due?

 

[urbophile]

Merseyrail have gone the other way. They used to say 'x minutes', now they give the actual or estimated time. For those of us who are less numerate it is more difficult as you have to calculate the difference between the current time and the expected time of the train.

 

[alholmes]

This is how TfL rail display on the platform indicators at both Liverpool Street (platforms 15-18) and Stratford. Took a bit of getting used to, particularly at Liverpool Street in the evening peak when the trains have different stopping patterns.

 

[LLivery]

What a pointless, silly idea. Yet another change that no one wanted or asked for. Nothing wrong with having for example "12:33 West Croydon expected: 3 mins" but having it without the timetabled time when its every 15 mins or less makes no sense. Whats the actual reasoning other than hiding delays of course?

 

[SF-02]

Southeastern did it about 2-3 years ago.

I dont prefer it but nothing new or unique.

 

[AlterEgo]

I prefer it with the LO style service. Makes it easier when you're in a rush. Honestly, I don't always know the time if I'm in a rush, if I look up and see 2 minutes. I'm less likely to rush. If I see 12:46, I may not have the time to find the time and work it out, so I'll just keep going to the platform. Others will likely rush further. I'm also not surprised that they are giving up on paper timetables. I only like them as I collect them to nosy through them for the maps and the odd services and service information. All my non-rail friends just have apps and websites to check it all now. Hell, even my nan proudly checks train and bus times on her iPhone.

Agreed entirely!
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What a pointless, silly idea. Yet another change that no one wanted or asked for. Nothing wrong with having for example "12:33 West Croydon expected: 3 mins" but having it without the timetabled time when its every 15 mins or less makes no sense. Whats the actual reasoning other than hiding delays of course?

Why is everything such a big conspiracy?

It is much easier and more succinct to display "minutes until" for a rapid metro service. Most people using LO probably do not concern themselves greatly with a timetable or whether the train is a few minutes late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail have gone the other way. They used to say 'x minutes', now they give the actual or estimated time. For those of us who are less numerate it is more difficult as you have to calculate the difference between the current time and the expected time of the train.

Merseyrail have just used the standard NR kit and setup. I agree it would make sense to be more like TfL as service patterns are so consistent - you don't need to know on the PIS that an Ormskirk train stops at <list of stations> as it always does[1] - and the Chester semifasts could be shown as "FAST CHESTER" like you get "FAST AMERSHAM" on the Met Line - people would know what it meant.

(Even MKC's old PIS did that - you had EUSTON FAST, EUSTON SEMI, EUSTON LOCAL and EUSTON VIRGIN as the destination as the old concourse level PIS didn't show calling points)

[1] OK, not Boxing Day, but that's a one-off.

 

[Mojo]

I noticed this a few weeks ago at platforms 16-18 at Liverpool Street.

The board on platform 18 was showing a Greater Anglia service to Southend Victoria departing quite some way in advance; I'm guessing this unit is some kind of hot spare there all day or it comes in really early from the depot.

 

[bicbasher]

Where Southern share with LO on the Sydenham corridor, I don't think it'd be wise to use the minute only option, especially on southbound Southern services. Northbound isn't a real issue with LO operating every 7.5 minutes, while Southern between NXG and Sydenham to London Bridge is an erratic 4th with a 9 min gap between the first and second service, then a long gap.

 

[F Great Eastern]

This is how it works at every single services on a lot of Irish Railway stations, on platform displays apart from the ones that do exclusively intercity traffic and it is incredibly annoying and frustrating for me, let alone the occasional passenger who gets even more annoyed.

It does have one benefit however for a TOC. It is proven to result in less people claiming compensation for delayed journeys because it is harder to tell how late a train was which considering how reluctant IR are to compensate people probably suits them fine.

The other downside of this across the Irish sea is that for the last couple of years when they changed the system a bit more, if a train isn't signed into the system, the live tracking system assumes its there anyway, counting down the minutes like a ghost train, until it hits zero and disappears from the board yet continues to count down stops further down the route and even appears on a live train map!

 

[LLivery]

Agreed entirely!
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Why is everything such a big conspiracy?

It is much easier and more succinct to display "minutes until" for a rapid metro service. Most people using LO probably do not concern themselves greatly with a timetable or whether the train is a few minutes late.

Because apart from the ELL core LO is not a rapid metro service. People know the timetable times as most trains are every 15mins. On the Sydenham corridor it will just be a confusing mess.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Because apart from the ELL core LO is not a rapid metro service. People know the timetable times as most trains are every 15mins.

4tph is a rapid Metro service.

We don't get times on the Tyne and Wear Metro system, and that runs every 15 minutes evening/weekend, and even less frequently than that early on weekend mornings. The world doesn't cave in.

It does disguise delays, I quite agree, but most people just want to know when the train will get here, not how delayed it is.

 

[NSE]

Because apart from the ELL core LO is not a rapid metro service. People know the timetable times as most trains are every 15mins. On the Sydenham corridor it will just be a confusing mess.

I tend to disagree on that. It's definitely more than that on the NLL beyond Willesden. With four from Richmond and two from Clapham heading toward Stratford. Thats one every 10, plus two terminators from Clapham (do all these run through completely to Stratford now?). The District line share three stations on the approach to Richmond also meaning that stretch has more than one every 15. The Watford DC Line shares a large stretch with the Bakerloo Line, again, that bit has 9 tph. The SLL shares services with Southern through Peckham, and down the BML towards Crystal Palace and Croydon. Even the WLL has the one Southern service an hour which means on average trains are less than every 15 minutes (I know its one additional service between 15 minute spacings). Therefore, I'd argue majority of the network has more than one train every 15 minutes. After all, the destination board that shows the LO service is the same one that shows the Southern services at New Cross Gate, the Bakerloo Line at Harlesden and so on.

 

[LLivery]

4tph is a rapid Metro service.

We don't get times on the Tyne and Wear Metro system, and that runs every 15 minutes evening/weekend, and even less frequently than that early on weekend mornings. The world doesn't cave in.

It does disguise delays, I quite agree, but most people just want to know when the train will get here, not how delayed it is.

Every 15 minutes is hardly rapid metro. From my understanding a rapid metro or rapid transit is every 2-3 minutes i.e. the Victoria Line, not every 15 minutes. Thats basically just a suburban rail service using the word "metro".
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I tend to disagree on that. It's definitely more than that on the NLL beyond Willesden. With four from Richmond and two from Clapham heading toward Stratford. Thats one every 10, plus two terminators from Clapham (do all these run through completely to Stratford now?). The District line share three stations on the approach to Richmond also meaning that stretch has more than one every 15. The Watford DC Line shares a large stretch with the Bakerloo Line, again, that bit has 9 tph. The SLL shares services with Southern through Peckham, and down the BML towards Crystal Palace and Croydon. Even the WLL has the one Southern service an hour which means on average trains are less than every 15 minutes (I know its one additional service between 15 minute spacings). Therefore, I'd argue majority of the network has more than one train every 15 minutes. After all, the destination board that shows the LO service is the same one that shows the Southern services at New Cross Gate, the Bakerloo Line at Harlesden and so on.

I take your point there. But having a train every 20 mins to Watford Jun or every 30 like the London Bridge - London Victoria, people want to know the times. They don't just turn up hoping they don't have to wait 29 minutes.

 

[NSE]

I take your point there. But having a train every 20 mins to Watford Jun or every 30 like the London Bridge - London Victoria, people want to know the times. They don't just turn up hoping they don't have to wait 29 minutes.

Like wise, I take yours. Though I'd suggest passengers who'd turn up at Sydenham for a specific London Bridge train would probably have looked up the time first. And again, on those routes those aren't the only services. Therefore even if the London Bridge train is in 29 minutes (then I agree, a set time is probably better), by the time its the next service its probably going to be less than ten minutes, when I'd suggest the 'XX mins' is the better option.

That said, the departure time is going to be the same whether its in '2 mins' or at '12:39'. I have a dyspraxic relative, I know for a fact the 2 mins version would benefit them every time.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I assume these stations are not going to have issues of advance tickets only being valid on specific services and pax being unable to differentiate between their intended train and an earlier delayed service?

 

[NSE]

I assume these stations are not going to have issues of advance tickets only being valid on specific services and pax being unable to differentiate between their intended train and an earlier delayed service?

Nope. Advance tickets are not possible on London Overground (unless part of the '+ connection' bit). They might crop up at LO served stations like Stratford, Clapham Junction and Watford Junction, but not for LO services. The vast majority of LO journeys are, from my experience, and I commuted on them for two years consistently, turn up and go. Even when I was commuting to work, my arrival via Jubilee Line to West Hampstead didn't always mean the same LO train onwards.

 

[rebmcr]

Every 15 minutes is hardly rapid metro. From my understanding a rapid metro or rapid transit is every 2-3 minutes i.e. the Victoria Line, not every 15 minutes.

The Victoria line is amongst the world leaders in train frequency. It's very rare to reach that intensive service level, the Northern line for example cannot manage it. Using that as your benchmark won't give you good comparisons at all.

 

[Goldfish62]

I prefer it with the LO style service. Makes it easier when you're in a rush. Honestly, I don't always know the time if I'm in a rush, if I look up and see 2 minutes. I'm less likely to rush. If I see 12:46, I may not have the time to find the time and work it out, so I'll just keep going to the platform. Others will likely rush further. I'm also not surprised that they are giving up on paper timetables. I only like them as I collect them to nosy through them for the maps and the odd services and service information. All my non-rail friends just have apps and websites to check it all now. Hell, even my nan proudly checks train and bus times on her iPhone.

And it's normal for bus services which have realtime information, both in and outside London, and has been ever since realtime info became into being. On such systems the only occasions you'll see the time displayed is when the bus isn't being tracked and the system defaults to scheduled time.
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Every 15 minutes is hardly rapid metro. From my understanding a rapid metro or rapid transit is every 2-3 minutes i.e. the Victoria Line, not every 15 minutes. Thats basically just a suburban rail service using the word "metro".

I've used many metro systems in Europe, and it's quite common for standard frequencies to be 10-15 minutes, but universally minutes countdown are used rather than times.

 

[EM2]

I've never really cared what the display says.
If I get to the platform at 12:50, and the display says the next train is in ten minutes, it doesn't matter to me whether it's the 12:45 running fifteen minutes late or the 13:00 on time.
If I get there at 12:50, and the display says the next train is in four minutes, then happy days, I'me getting home early!

 

[Hophead]

I can advise that, today at Gunnersbury, the LO trains were showing the scheduled departure time with the minutes until the train is expected, just like last week. Do we know when (and, indeed, if) this change to eliminate the departure time will be happening?

 

[Skie]

Merseyrail have just used the standard NR kit and setup. I agree it would make sense to be more like TfL as service patterns are so consistent - you don't need to know on the PIS that an Ormskirk train stops at <list of stations> as it always does[1] - and the Chester semifasts could be shown as "FAST CHESTER" like you get "FAST AMERSHAM" on the Met Line - people would know what it meant.

It's definitely a backward step. Only important info for MR trains is how many minutes to wait, destination and number of carriages. That was all well displayed at a glance on the old style screens that could show 3 lines of trains. The new ones endlessly scroll a list of stops on the second line and eventually flash a number of carriages before scrolling again.