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Taking the Tories' likely candidate for London Mayor into consideration, should she by some awful chance win the next mayoral election, I'd fully expect her to rename one of the Overground lines after her heroine, and rename the others after things that would appeal to her part of the electorate, the Empire Line is a contender.
I think it was the way the transferring of the Lea Valley Lines and Romford - Upminster shuttle to TfL in 2015 was carried out that ruined the Overground brand. IMO they should have been branded as part of the TfL Rail brand as they connect with the future Crossrail. In fact I think TfL Rail would still make a solid brand for radial and cross-London services using mainline-sized trains, while Overground is used exclusively for the ‘orbital’ services that use the North or East London Lines.
Indeed, and I would have also distinguished the lines in a way that keeps a similar hue for each service group. For example, if Overground was just the GOBLIN, North and East London Lines, I would have used a darker orange for the former two and a lighter orange for the latter. TfL Rail with the Elizabeth Line, Watford DC Line, Romford - Upminster shuttle and Lea Valley Lines could have used variations of purple for each route.
I don't think it's that stupid, even before Overground existed a lot of people I knew referred to the NR routes as 'the overground'
In much the same way as London Transport/TfL over the years continues to take over london suburban rail services(Central, Northern, Jubilee, the planned Bakerloo extension, the Elizabeth Line, planned crossrail 2 etc have all done thid) the intention seems pretty clear, directly stated even that TfL wish to continue taking control of and integrating more services into their operations, I can easily imagine in 20 years time it'll be most of them, to just have 'Overground' then refer to the Orbital would be like Underground just referring to the Circle line
A more apt comparison would be with Yerkes' original UERL lines but yes, you're right. Naming them is an excellent idea on paper, but, the controversy aside, the execution is rather lacking. I can certainly see people getting mixed up between whichever the blue line is and the DLR.
I also think that what you've said highlights the transient nature of, for instance, the Lioness line: if, in 20 years' time, a clutch of new Overground lines need to be named, imagine how different they might be! They're not as bad as that 1930s proposal to call the Northern line the "Tootencamden Line", but I can imagine certain of them dating just as badly.
It really doesn't seem logical to try and find names that mix the start and end stations, especially where there are branches or line extensions over the years.
People can still have their own colloquial names for lines, or show off by using the names they had from the 1800s or whatever, but a name is a name. People will know what line is what from the name, and all the lines come under the Overground umbrella, with the orange roundel used on the maps - just like the BR logo for National Rail and so on.
The more I look at the TfL documents, the more logical it becomes. And as I said some pages ago, once people get bored of repeating the same things over and over, the fuss will die down and life will go on.
Only in an absoloute sense (also not for delays), and any metro railway operator with a huge number of trains daily and tph is likely to cancel rather than run with trains.
The Elizabeth line is fairly neat at the moment - one operator, two branches, one type of rolling stock. Adding Romford - Upminster (Liberty line) would be strange, but it is also strange for the Overground too.
The Wembley Line would be a terrible name for the Watford DC as it's not the best way to get to the stadium by any stretch, for that you want the Met to Wembley Park.
I would have gone for the Harlequin Line as it once was (Harlesden and Queen's Park) myself, but I don't mind what they did.
Its stupidly confusing. Tell someone they need to change to the Suffragette line, the double green line one, but they need to know it’s Orange Overground as well.
If the lines are named is there any need for the Overground branding at all any more?
Totally agree. 'Line' should be removed and it should read 'Elizabeth', 'Weaver', 'Lioness' etc etc.
Consumers don't care. It's adding more words to maps than needed.
It occurs to me that naming individual lines is heading into a dead end. If it makes reporting disruption easier then PLEASE leave off the reports of the lines running OK. We are ending up with more and more information and can no longer see the wood for the trees. This will get worse when overground is replaced by all the individual lines regardless of any disruption.
On my Thameslink journeys home (i.e. away from London) I see reports of ALL the underground lines - it is over information BUT made worse by the fact that the underground is totally irrelevant if you are travelling away from them !.
Do we really need line names for reporting purposes. What s wrong with say "Clapham J - Willesden - no service". That way the rest of the lines with the same name are distinguished from. If that is not good enough then all the Network Rail lines in London need individual names as well. Cumbersome.
Some people would say all this proves is that London is too big! Maybe it is, but the fact of its size means different solutions are needed to what elsewhere would be simple problems.
Good luck to anyone charged with sorting out the jumble of Network Rail lines in South London, most of them built by rival companies trying to poach one another's business. If they had been planned logically life would be easier. But London evolved, messily. Trying to tidy it up is a thankless but sometimes necessary task.
I wholly appreciate that these names were well thought out to celebrate the individual line and local heritage, but does the Overground system really need it? In my opinion No, as the tube map is already overcrowded and confusing as it is, let alone for foreigners, if anything I found the consistency of the orange welcome, as I would immediately associate said tone with the London Overground. I just think erecting individual colours akin to the London Underground will just merge the Overground lines as if they are part of the Underground (If you know what I mean) I rather liked the Overground as its own orange network, and I just think adding more colours will just add confusion. However on a brighter note, I think the names have been extremely well chosen, and celebrate the history of the areas excellently. Maybe TFL could rename the lines, however retain the universal orange, how is that of a compromise?
Just intrigued whether London Overground trains will receive an updated livery? maybe the 710/s on the Lea Valley Lines could be given a livery bespoke to the weaver district, and could the 710/2s have a livery celebrating the Lionesses?
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Also, I am interested to see updated station signage regarding to local history of each line.
You know being a grumpy Northern sod, I couldn't give a stuff what London calls it's lines. But now that the boy wonder Khan has spent millions of quid renaming some with these names, every Labour mayor in the country is going to want to do the same. I can't wait for Labour to come in and spend more time and effort in inclusive branding than actually improving services...
I don't have an issue with the names although I was hoping for "Crystal" or "Palace" down my way. The latter would have gone well with "Stadium". And I can't help feeling that "Tardis" would have been a big success!
Just intrigued whether London Overground trains will receive an updated livery? maybe the 710/s on the Lea Valley Lines could be given a livery bespoke to the weaver district, and could the 710/2s have a livery celebrating the Lionesses?
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Also, I am interested to see updated station signage regarding to local history of each line.
I highly doubt it as the same units are used on several different lines. Only the 710/1 & 378/1 are used on the same lines but I imagine they'll all keep the same Overground livery.
Except there was no football World Cup in 2023! The last World Cup finals was in 2022 (unusually held during November and December, as it was in the desert state of Qatar).
However I suspect you are remembering the Euro 2020 competition, which was actually held in the summer of 2021 (delayed coz of Covid) - in the final (played at Wembley) the England mens team lost to Italy on penalties.
Except there was no football World Cup in 2023! The last World Cup finals was in 2022 (unusually held during November and December, as it was in the desert state of Qatar).
However I suspect you are remembering the Euro 2020 competition, which was actually held in the summer of 2021 (delayed coz of Covid) - in the final (played at Wembley) the England mens team lost to Italy on penalties.
I don't have an issue with the names although I was hoping for "Crystal" or "Palace" down my way. The latter would have gone well with "Stadium". And I can't help feeling that "Tardis" would have been a big success!
Good luck to anyone charged with sorting out the jumble of Network Rail lines in South London, most of them built by rival companies trying to poach one another's business. If they had been planned logically life would be easier. But London evolved, messily. Trying to tidy it up is a thankless but sometimes necessary task.
The London Overground lines being discussed on this thread predominantly aren’t in South London.
It’s true that the suburban rail network in South London is far more complex than London Overground, yet people seem to cope with it just fine without needing to publicise individual line names.
After a few days of these names, I think that I will probably just be thinking that I will be catching an Overground train whenever I'm on one of these lines. Presumably all of the trains will still be orange and Overground liveried?
After a few days of these names, I think that I will probably just be thinking that I will be catching an Overground train whenever I'm on one of these lines. Presumably all of the trains will still be orange and Overground liveried?
Similarly to how tube trains all have a red-and-blue Underground livery, yes. We are told PA announcements will be re-recorded, so I assume the line/route names will be displayed on the in-car displays and maybe on the sides of the train.
The London Overground lines being discussed on this thread predominantly aren’t in South London.
It’s true that the suburban rail network in South London is far more complex than London Overground, yet people seem to cope with it just fine without needing to publicise individual line names.
I know the Overground, like the Tube, is predominantly north of the Thames. My point is that if, as often discussed, all suburban NR lines in the capital become part of the Overground, someone is going to have to sort out the tangle of routes.
When I lived in south London I was fortunate enough to be equidistant from the District Line and from the frequent service on the SW mainline, so it wasn't a problem for most people locally. But I doubt if many of the lines in South London are used anything like as much as they could be, just because it's not as easy as the Tube. You have to know the routes the train goes, and usually, because they don't run to a turn up and go frequency, you have to consult a timetable. I'm sure many people will opt for a bus to the nearest Tube station instead.
Saying 'people seem to cope with it fine' just means that people who use it know how to use it, which is obvious.
The London Overground lines being discussed on this thread predominantly aren’t in South London.
It’s true that the suburban rail network in South London is far more complex than London Overground, yet people seem to cope with it just fine without needing to publicise individual line names.
I know the Overground, like the Tube, is predominantly north of the Thames. My point is that if, as often discussed, all suburban NR lines in the capital become part of the Overground, someone is going to have to sort out the tangle of routes.
When I lived in south London I was fortunate enough to be equidistant from the District Line and from the frequent service on the SW mainline, so it wasn't a problem for most people locally. But I doubt if many of the lines in South London are used anything like as much as they could be, just because it's not as easy as the Tube. You have to know the routes the train goes, and usually, because they don't run to a turn up and go frequency, you have to consult a timetable. I'm sure many people will opt for a bus to the nearest Tube station instead.
Saying 'people seem to cope with it fine' just means that people who use it know how to use it, which is obvious.
I think most of the lines south of the Thames are used very heavily. It is not going to be possible to add more frequency. One idea touted in the past was to simplify routes so there were more changes required for many journeys but a better frequency. That might make for more resilience.
I think most of the lines south of the Thames are used very heavily. It is not going to be possible to add more frequency. One idea touted in the past was to simplify routes so there were more changes required for many journeys but a better frequency. That might make for more resilience.
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