London Overground line names announced

[DarloRich]

Maybe, but as with the names chosen, sometimes you just have to accept that you're going to annoy someone whatever you go with.

Agree!

I trust you would be silent if we ended up getting the Thatcher, Major and Churchill lines?

I would be unhappy with Thatcher but the other 2 wouldn't worry me. I wouldn't be moaning on about culture wars, wokism or "politics" mind.

Actually John Major would be an interesting choice, Brixton boy, poor childhood, clerical jobs, self study and improvement, rose through banking and then through politics to be the PM. I don't agree with his politics but he is a decent man. Affair aside obvs!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I really don't mind the names at all since they reflect a lot of the culture and heritage of London but, as a non-Londoner, it is the breaking of the geographical link with the line that will confuse me.

People keep saying this, but really none of the existing line names have a clear geographical link, with the exception of the Waterloo & City line.

There are no clear geographical links at all for the Met, the District, the Jubilee. The Northern Line is the most southerly of all the tube lines. And so on and so forth.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I really don't mind the names at all since they reflect a lot of the culture and heritage of London but, as a non-Londoner, it is the breaking of the geographical link with the line that will confuse me. Lea Valley, Watford etc all give an idea as to where you will be going (remember we are talking about the Overground here) something that Mildmay, Windrush just doesn't (Possible exception is Lioness but as a non-footie fan I had to think about that - the link didn't leap out at me).

Again there's lots of lines that aren't geographical names in London.

People keeping making points about how various tube lines dont have geographic names. Yes but they are decades old and got named when the map was a lot more sparse. Its different nowdays when you have so many different lines on the TfL map

You mean like the Elizabeth line? Oh.

 

[renegademaster]

Agree!

I would be unhappy with Thatcher but the other 2 wouldn't worry me. I wouldn't be moaning on about culture wars, wokism or "politics" mind.

Actually John Major would be an interesting choice, Brixton boy, poor childhood, clerical jobs, self study and improvement, rose through banking and then through politics to be the PM. I don't agree with his politics but he is a decent man. Affair aside obvs!

If Boris had named Crossrail the Thatcher line you'd be right to complain about politics and him inciting a culture war, and i think lots of people will be loudly doing so

 

[Class800]

One more practical point is whether the move to separately named lines will lead to a merger (either officially or practically) between underground and overground, and what impact this might have for ticket validity? We're aware that there can be some issues on the overground but it is subject to national rail rules, including for ALRs

 

[renegademaster]

People keep saying this, but really none of the existing line names have a clear geographical link, with the exception of the Waterloo & City line.

There are no clear geographical links at all for the Met, the District, the Jubilee. The Northern Line is the most southerly of all the tube lines. And so on and so forth.

Weve had 50+ years to get used to them, plus the Northern is getting split into two different lines with new names soon anway

 

[Horizon22]

I really don't mind the names at all since they reflect a lot of the culture and heritage of London but, as a non-Londoner, it is the breaking of the geographical link with the line that will confuse me. Lea Valley, Watford etc all give an idea as to where you will be going (remember we are talking about the Overground here) something that Mildmay, Windrush just doesn't (Possible exception is Lioness but as a non-footie fan I had to think about that - the link didn't leap out at me).

Yeah I think as with any change this is going to take some time to bed in. I think most of the public who aren’t regulars or enthusiasts have never particularly used the geographic names and just said “I’m getting on the overground” - which is also the name many use for National Rail services in inner/outer London

 

[DarloRich]

If Boris had named Crossrail the Thatcher line you'd be right to complain about politics and him inciting a culture war, and i think lots of people will be loudly doing so

only if you let yourself be wound up - I wouldn't like it but I wouldn't be wibbling on about culture wars!

 

[alholmes]

Weve had 50+ years to get used to them, plus the Northern is getting split into two different lines with new names soon anway

Is it? There’s been lots of talk about it for many years, but as far as I’m aware there’s no actual plan to do so. Can you provide a source or link?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Agree!

I would be unhappy with Thatcher but the other 2 wouldn't worry me. I wouldn't be moaning on about culture wars, wokism or "politics" mind.

Actually John Major would be an interesting choice, Brixton boy, poor childhood, clerical jobs, self study and improvement, rose through banking and then through politics to be the PM. I don't agree with his politics but he is a decent man. Affair aside obvs!

I think if any of the lines were named after politicians it would be fair to argue about politics. I'd be just as against the Nye Bevan Line or the Keir Hardie Line as I would the Margaret Thatcher Line.

But I genuinely don't understand the wibble from our more right-wing friends about these names.

Weve had 50+ years to get used to them, plus the Northern is getting split into two different lines with new names soon anway

Well you can get used to these non-geographical names too then.

I did, however, quite like the suggestions from Count Binface: the Help Line, the Punch Line, the Tan Line, the Bikini Line, the Bread Line, the Bin Line, and, my favourites, the Vase Line and the Mascu Line:

 

[BlueLeanie]

Londoners generally might have an issue with Thatcher I would suggest!

What about the Ken Line or Livingstone Line?

Famously he's the only Mayor of London that Kate Bush has written a song about.

Although I suppose it could cause confusion with accents if we had the Ken Line and the Khan Line.

 

[renegademaster]

Well you can get used to these non-geographical names too then.

Just because bad decisions where made in the past doesnt mean you have to keep making them.

Plus the field is a lot more crowded than when the names you point to where deciced, naming the 20th line is a bit different from naming the 5th

But I genuinely don't understand the wibble

This is a discussion forum, people are going to discuss and critique things

 

[Tetchytyke]

Just because bad decisions where made in the past doesnt mean you have to keep making them.

Or, alternatively, you could accept that geographical line names don't exist in London and, even more importantly, can't exist in London.

Take the suggested East London Line. Highbury and Islington isn't in East London. Nor is New Cross. West Croydon certainly isn't in East London. Or the suggested North London Line. Since when has Richmond or Clapham Junction been in North London?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Plus the field is a lot more crowded than when the names you point to where deciced, naming the 20th line is a bit different from naming the 5th

But that is not true. The Elizabeth line was literally named that just a few years ago.

Think they are made names if that is your opinion, but don't make things up about lines not being named after non geographical things in the modern age or about lines not being names after political things, because that just is not the reality we live in.

 

[renegademaster]

Or, alternatively, you could accept that geographical line names don't exist in London and, even more importantly, can't exist in London.

Take the suggested East London Line. Highbury and Islington isn't in East London. Nor is New Cross. West Croydon certainly isn't in East London. Or the suggested North London Line. Since when has Richmond or Clapham Junction been in North London?

No name is perfect , but the geographic names arent showing you favor any demographic other another. Which "Elizabeth line" , "Windrush line" or speculative alternatives like "Churchill line" all show in their own way.

But that is not true. The Elizabeth line was literally named that just a few years ago.

Think they are made names if that is your opinion, but don't make things up about lines not being named after non geographical things in the modern age or about lines not being names after political things, because that just is not the reality we live in.

I dont like Elizabeth line either. Their was quite a big backlash when it was revealed over crossrail, including accusing as it being way to pander to "gammon"

 

[DarloRich]

I think if any of the lines were named after politicians it would be fair to argue about politics. I'd be just as against the Nye Bevan Line or the Keir Hardie Line as I would the Margaret Thatcher Line.

But I genuinely don't understand the wibble from our more right-wing friends about these names.

Agree - i was simply saying if you want a PM named line Major would be an interesting choice - but he is still alive so may be excluded! The RW response is just an example of the culture nonsense that fuels politics on the right. it is deflection.

 

[DjU]

If it annoys the snowflakes then it seems like money well spent.

The fact is sent a big portion of this thread into a raging fit becuase the lines had the temerity to be named after female or BAME things is veeeerrry telling unfortunately...

 

[Tetchytyke]

No name is perfect , but the geographic names arent showing you favor any demographic other another.

Right, so we've got to your real objection, which is that you don't like the names.

I'm not sure how "Weaver Line" favours one particular demographic? "Liberty Line"? Maybe it is because I am a fully paid-up member of the Guardian-reading tofu-eating wokerati, but I genuinely do not understand why these names are particularly controversial.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Where are these please?

Highbury & Islington, I would assume, given that the line diagrams both start there

 

[wanderingriver]

Can someone explain to me how this cost 6 million quid ?

Paying the creative agency that helped TfL, labour costs for redoing ALL of the TfL signage, costs of printing for paper signage on all tube and underground trains and platforms, costs of getting new metal signage across the whole network, voice actor costs to re-record announcements, etc etc

 

[norbitonflyer]

Weve had 50+ years to get used to them, plus the Northern is getting split into two different lines with new names soon anway

Can't happen until pasenger circulation at Camden Town is improved, and that can keeps gettin g kicked down the road.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Paying the creative agency that helped TfL, labour costs for redoing ALL of the TfL signage, costs of printing for paper signage on all tube and underground trains and platforms, costs of getting new metal signage across the whole network, voice actor costs to re-record announcements, etc etc

And- this point really needs emphasising- is all money that would have had to have been spent even if they'd just gone with U1, U2, etc.

 

[kristiang85]

The RW response is just an example of the culture nonsense that fuels politics on the right. it is deflection.

But you're the one claiming this, as "culture nonsense" fuels politics on the left too. Naming the lines this way is bound to be controversial, but becuase it's "left leaning" it's apparently OK. I firmly believe naming of public transport lines, especially in this febrile day and age, should be apolitical.

Had the name suggestions been for more traditionally "right leaning" causes (e.g. monarchs, historical prime ministers during imperial days, etc.) it would have been thrown out of the committee meeting, and most likely would have come down to geographical names.

As for history, monarchs are at least vaguely neutral names (this is a mostly pro-monarchy country, on both sides of the political spectrum), but I can understand why some wouldn't want to keep going down that route, especially in modern times.

Thus geographical names are the most useful and least controversial, or numbers or letters. That is also in line with London being a global city, and visitors should also be able to use names with ease too.

 

[Horizon22]

What about the Ken Line or Livingstone Line?

Famously he's the only Mayor of London that Kate Bush has written a song about.

Although I suppose it could cause confusion with accents if we had the Ken Line and the Khan Line.

Not sure that will be any less divisive - Thatcher and Livingstone famously quarrelled in GLC days!

I would suggest outside of monarchs, naming after people - particularly politicians - is fraught with problems. Indeed I remember reading a few years ago that it was best practice now to name buildings after still living people in case something unsavoury came to light.

 

[DjU]

The monarchal names are not political, the monarch represents the nation and its history so are as inclusive as possible.

The Monarch is the Head of State... it about as political as you can get.

Calling this woke or left reveals faaar much more about you than any of the wibble you wrote.

 

[Horizon22]

But you're the one claiming this, as "culture nonsense" fuels politics on the left too. Naming the lines this way is bound to be controversial, but becuase it's "left leaning" it's apparently OK. I firmly believe naming of public transport lines, especially in this febrile day and age, should be apolitical.

Had the name suggestions been for more traditionally "right leaning" causes (e.g. monarchs, historical prime ministers during imperial days, etc.) it would have been thrown out of the committee meeting, and most likely would have come down to geographical names.

As for history, monarchs are at least vaguely neutral names (this is a mostly pro-monarchy country, on both sides of the political spectrum), but I can understand why some wouldn't want to keep going down that route, especially in modern times.

Thus geographical names are the most useful and least controversial, or numbers or letters.

Like it or not though, London is (and has long been) “left-leaning”.

 

[HullRailMan]

Politics aside, this is part of the current depressing trend for everything to have a message/push an agenda. Why can’t things just be functional? Khan is an expert at this - see the NYE firework display. It would be far better to have named them geographically rather than after a cause.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Had the name suggestions been for more traditionally "right leaning" causes (e.g. monarchs) it would have been thrown out of the committee meeting

Yet the last three 'new' lines have all been named after monarchs.

There is only one line- the W&C- which has a genuinely geographical name.

Thus geographical names are the most useful and least controversial.

Genuine question: what is controversial about the Windrush Line?

 

[renegademaster]

Like it or not though, London is (and has long been) “left-leaning”.

They elected Boris twice, and the only vaguely political naming he did in his 8 years was "Elizabeth line" , which received plenty of backlash

 

[kristiang85]

Calling this woke or left reveals faaar much more about you than any of the wibble you wrote.

I generally find if you have to denigrate someone's reasoned opinion as 'wibble', then you don't really have a good counter argument...