London Overground services missing out stops to recover the service

[johnny_t]

I was out with my son yesterday and he was telling me a story about how he once got an Overground from Shepherds Bush to Stratford but, because the train was running late, they cut out a lot of stations and went direct to Stratford.

Anyway, I was on the Overground from Shepherds Bush to Stratford today and, at Willesden Junction, a fairly quiet and nondescript announcement was made that the train was running late and so they were going to go direct to Stratford with no intermediate stops.

As became obvious, a lot of people missed this announcement, and were getting quite annoyed that they had to go all the way to Stratford before they could head back.

Why do they do this rather than, say, stop at every fourth stop ? At least then the inconvenience of overshooting is going to be much, much less ? Given that we've only actually been on this route once each, and it has happened both times, it seems like it must be fairly regular.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Given that we've only actually been on this route once each, and it has happened both times, it seems like it must be fairly regular.

I can't answer your question, I'm afraid, however I can only attest to this. Myself, I have only travelled a handful of times on the route you state, and I have experienced the same thing with the train running non-stop from Willesden Junction to Stratford, due to late-running.

 

[t0ffeeman]

I was out with my son yesterday and he was telling me a story about how he once got an Overground from Shepherds Bush to Stratford but, because the train was running late, they cut out a lot of stations and went direct to Stratford.

Anyway, I was on the Overground from Shepherds Bush to Stratford today and, at Willesden Junction, a fairly quiet and nondescript announcement was made that the train was running late and so they were going to go direct to Stratford with no intermediate stops.

As became obvious, a lot of people missed this announcement, and were getting quite annoyed that they had to go all the way to Stratford before they could head back.

Why do they do this rather than, say, stop at every fourth stop ? At least then the inconvenience of overshooting is going to be much, much less ? Given that we've only actually been on this route once each, and it has happened both times, it seems like it must be fairly regular.

Yes its a policy. The driver is told at last minute , normally at Willesden Jct to run fast by Control. This in theory stops a build up of 5 trains in 5 mins routine. Also gives the late runner an on time start at Stratford. The more stops you put in the more hassle it causes... lack of loops on the NLL doesnt help. I personally made loads of annoucements, even suggesting that those who wanted Hackney Wick, Homerton to stay on as it would be an immediate turnaround at Stratford

 

[Via Bank]

From what I can gather it's also quite common for this to happen because the NLL is heavily trafficked by freight, and sometimes it'll be preferable during delays to run an Overground train fast to the next passing opportunity so that a freight train doesn't miss its path further along its route.

 

[yorkie]

...At least then the inconvenience of overshooting is going to be much, much less ?

NWhat they did was actually the best thing to do; the only issue was the announcements were perhaps below standard.

 

[Horizon22]

Why do they do this rather than, say, stop at every fourth stop ? At least then the inconvenience of overshooting is going to be much, much less ? Given that we've only actually been on this route once each, and it has happened both times, it seems like it must be fairly regular.

It is a service recovery decision. It might be that it won't make up the desired time by being every fourth stop. It may be there is another train immediately behind, and therefore clearing the late running train to improve the headways (gaps in service) when the service reverses and starts from Stratford on-time is the best option. It may be that due to freight, it would just be as delayed anyway. It might be due to the crew's break requirements. It may be due to the turnaround time at the terminus. It may be due to passenger loading levels and time of day. Or all of the above or a comibnation of them.

There are a myriad of reasons and each late train is subject to different factors, although they may have similarities.

What could have been better was the information - was it an on-train or station announcement? Hopefully the CIS had the correct stops (one, Stratford) listed.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I read the title as an attempt to place a station at Brixton on the South London or Atlantic lines (Ie there’s a gaps which might be filled by a new station). But then that’s probably in the Speculative thread, especially for Brixton which is in the very expensive category.

 

[afclondon]

Happens quite often, I usually spot one at least a few times a month. There's quite a few sections where they choose to run fast from my travels,

Wilesden Jnc - Clapham Junction
Wilesden Jnc - Gospel Oak (then sometimes fast to Stratford)
Wilesden Jnc - Stratford

I imagine having to call at additional stations would negate most of the benefits, especially given the need for announcements and the slightly increased dwell time that entails as passengers respond.

 

[Somewhere]

I read the title as an attempt to place a station at Brixton on the South London or Atlantic lines (Ie there’s a gaps which might be filled by a new station). But then that’s probably in the Speculative thread, especially for Brixton which is in the very expensive category.

So did I!

 

[Kite159]

I guess it only works if there is a large enough gap in front of the delayed train.
No point saying "this train will run nonstop from Willesden to Stratford" if it catches up with a Stratford train in front by West Hampstead

 

[Class15]

I guess it only works if there is a large enough gap in front of the delayed train.
No point saying "this train will run nonstop from Willesden to Stratford" if it catches up with a Stratford train in front by West Hampstead

However, they often send the fast train down the goods loop at Barnsbury, stopping the slow train at the station, to get the late-running fast train ahead of the train in front.

 

[Somewhere]

I guess it only works if there is a large enough gap in front of the delayed train.
No point saying "this train will run nonstop from Willesden to Stratford" if it catches up with a Stratford train in front by West Hampstead

Well, it would stop the late train losing more time, even if it doesn't make any time up

 

[BJames]

Also done in LO West Anglia land, used to be pretty constant but is a bit less these days - although it is often to great effect, particularly as there is a lot less freight and traffic once past Hackney Downs.

Example from just the other day: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P25382/2023-11-09/detailed - and one I boarded a couple of weeks back announced at Bush Hill Park that due to a fault on this train, we would be Edmonton - Seven Sisters - Liverpool Street only. At Edmonton and Seven Sisters the driver walked through the train to make sure everyone had got the message and manually closed the doors, so we had a few minutes stand at both: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P25369/2023-10-30/detailed

The trouble is a lot of the time people simply aren't paying attention - I've noticed this on the limited stop football specials which run non-stop Liverpool Street to White Hart Lane - despite this being clearly displayed on platform departure boards and announced before departure, some still expect to be able to alight at e.g. London Fields. Short of asking every single person coming onto the platform where they're travelling to there isn't much more that can be done.

 

[johnny_t]

It is a service recovery decision. It might be that it won't make up the desired time by being every fourth stop. It may be there is another train immediately behind, and therefore clearing the late running train to improve the headways (gaps in service) when the service reverses and starts from Stratford on-time is the best option. It may be that due to freight, it would just be as delayed anyway. It might be due to the crew's break requirements. It may be due to the turnaround time at the terminus. It may be due to passenger loading levels and time of day. Or all of the above or a comibnation of them.

There are a myriad of reasons and each late train is subject to different factors, although they may have similarities.

What could have been better was the information - was it an on-train or station announcement? Hopefully the CIS had the correct stops (one, Stratford) listed.

This was an in-train announcement, so it was really people who were already on, wearing earphones, etc. that missed it.

 

[Kenny G]

This was an in-train announcement, so it was really people who were already on, wearing earphones, etc. that missed it.

Or the hard of hearing or with limited comprehension skills.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's pretty commonplace for people on trains to completely ignore annoucements. Some may be impaired in some way (with whom I do have sympathy). But many will be either engrossed in their smart device (beware the smartphone zombies), or have their mouths engaged in conversation (which apparently disables all other function). And for those, I have no sympathy.

 

[Kenny G]

It's pretty commonplace for people on trains to completely ignore annoucements. Some may be impaired in some way (with whom I do have sympathy). But many will be either engrossed in their smart device (beware the smartphone zombies), or have their mouths engaged in conversation (which apparently disables all other function). And for those, I have no sympathy.

Perhaps if train announcements were restricted to necessary information people would interrupt their conversations to listen. All too often they are security slogans/ messages or statements of the obvious.

 

[Horizon22]

This was an in-train announcement, so it was really people who were already on, wearing earphones, etc. that missed it.

Always impossible to cover 100% of people then. If the CIS/PIS were updated and approriate announcements were made, little more can be done.

 

[Skoodle]

This happens often on the East London Line too, especially in morning peak. Usually, I'll be contacted by the signaller at Shadwell and asked to run fast between Shoreditch and Highbury. I'll then change the PIS at Shadwell (Shadwell is a start/destination so easier to set up that way) and blank out the intermediate stops. I'll then do an announcement between Shadwell and Whitechapel. I'll then do a couple of announcements at Whitechapel. After leaving Whitechapel I'll then play the automated announcement that says something along the lines of "Due to service disruption, this train will run fast to its destination, after it leaves the next station. Those requiring intermediate stops should alight at the next station." After arriving at Shoreditch, I'll let it play out until "The next station is Highbury & Islington" and do another. Even after all that, there will always be some confused people at Highbury asking how to get back to Haggerston. I've done my best and can't really do much more (apart from hovering over the passcom override as we go through stations).

 

[LLivery]

When I was commuting from West Croydon some years ago, being fast run around 18:30 was happening multiple times per week. It got so irritating, I'd often plan to take the following Southern service to Norwood Jun and then the London Bridge service, which was quicker than waiting for the next LO.

On the ELL, I've been on a few recent fast runs from Shordeitch to Highbury. Considering how quick the journey becomes, it does make you jealous of New York's express trains...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Anyway, I was on the Overground from Shepherds Bush to Stratford today and, at Willesden Junction, a fairly quiet and nondescript announcement was made that the train was running late and so they were going to go direct to Stratford with no intermediate stops.

Wow, just how late was this train? That's a lot of stops to skip so I'd imagine a huge speed-up to its remaining journey if it doesn't get caught behind other trains.

Agree with you that running so fast seems overkill. You'd have thought that it could at least stop at - say - West Hampstead, Camden Road, and Highbury, and still make up a lot of time.

 

[Horizon22]

Wow, just how late was this train? That's a lot of stops to skip so I'd imagine a huge speed-up to its remaining journey if it doesn't get caught behind other trains.

Agree with you that running so fast seems overkill. You'd have thought that it could at least stop at - say - West Hampstead, Camden Road, and Highbury, and still make up a lot of time.

But if you’ve got 2-3 trains stacked behind, it may be worthwhile to do. The next trains will sweep up the passengers.

Given the speed of the line I’d imagine it would only need to be about 20 minutes late for such a call to be made. Also the turnaround time at Stratford needs to be considered; the shorter it is, the more stations would probably be skipped.

Or maybe this controller was being particularly brutal with the service!

 

[VauxhallandI]

Yep since Khan insisted on annoying Covid messages for six months after everyone else had stopped I started using my headphones for the entire journey on LO.

 

[paninaro]

I use headphones a lot and have missed lots of these announcements (when the Overground runs fast from Shoreditch High Street to Highbury and Islington) and can assure some previous posters it has nothing to do with COVID, Sadiq Kahn or whatever bugbear they have. I just like music.

 

[hick]

But if you’ve got 2-3 trains stacked behind, it may be worthwhile to do. The next trains will sweep up the passengers.

Given the speed of the line I’d imagine it would only need to be about 20 minutes late for such a call to be made. Also the turnaround time at Stratford needs to be considered; the shorter it is, the more stations would probably be skipped.

Or maybe this controller was being particularly brutal with the service!

This run fast is to get the train back in the correct order towards Stratford so the train is then in the platform at Stratford at the correct time to avoid delaying other services, and on time for its return working. Generally this run fast is only done when the train is exactly one path out. Late in it's own path, it can run fast for fewer stops, 2 paths or more out, and it will be terminated short of Stratford.

For the one path out to work, the train running fast must overtake an on time train at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury. In order to keep the train at Caledonian Road on time, the overtaking train must be literally one block behind at Camden Road East Jn where the tracks split. At that point it is still 1 path late (6 mins peak, 7.5 off peak), so needs to carry on running fast to Stratford.

If it stopped before the split it would likely not be right behind ready for the overtake, delaying the on time train. If it stops after the overtake, then it won't get to Stratford on time, and the train it was overtaking is now also late.

This happens often on the East London Line too, especially in morning peak. Usually, I'll be contacted by the signaller at Shadwell and asked to run fast between Shoreditch and Highbury. I'll then change the PIS at Shadwell (Shadwell is a start/destination so easier to set up that way) and blank out the intermediate stops. I'll then do an announcement between Shadwell and Whitechapel. I'll then do a couple of announcements at Whitechapel. After leaving Whitechapel I'll then play the automated announcement that says something along the lines of "Due to service disruption, this train will run fast to its destination, after it leaves the next station. Those requiring intermediate stops should alight at the next station." After arriving at Shoreditch, I'll let it play out until "The next station is Highbury & Islington" and do another. Even after all that, there will always be some confused people at Highbury asking how to get back to Haggerston. I've done my best and can't really do much more (apart from hovering over the passcom override as we go through stations).

There is a deliberate lateness to advising drivers on Overground as a mitigation through learned experience.

Whilst there is an obvious need to keep passengers informed, there have been some examples where once told, drivers have then had extended dwells at every station until the run fast. If the message is given 10 stops before, you can see the problem and the result is the intervention to solve a problem has resulted in various extra trains getting delayed/ran fast/cancelled.

A difficult balance sometimes!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This run fast is to get the train back in the correct order towards Stratford so the train is then in the platform at Stratford at the correct time to avoid delaying other services, and on time for its return working. Generally this run fast is only done when the train is exactly one path out. Late in it's own path, it can run fast for fewer stops, 2 paths or more out, and it will be terminated short of Stratford.

For the one path out to work, the train running fast must overtake an on time train at Caledonian Road & Barnsbury. In order to keep the train at Caledonian Road on time, the overtaking train must be literally one block behind at Camden Road East Jn where the tracks split. At that point it is still 1 path late (6 mins peak, 7.5 off peak), so needs to carry on running fast to Stratford.

If it stopped before the split it would likely not be right behind ready for the overtake, delaying the on time train. If it stops after the overtake, then it won't get to Stratford on time, and the train it was overtaking is now also late.

Thanks for the explanation, but I'm still a bit confused. I'm assuming that by 'one path out', you mean that the late train is now running in the path of the following train, hence delaying that one too? Why does it need to overtake the train in front? If that train is on time, then I don't see why you'd need to interfere with it in any way? Shouldn't the purpose be to simply get the late running train to make up 6-7.5 minutes so that it can be back in its own path and leave Stratford on time (which wouldn't require overtaking anything, simply catching up a bit to be the usual 6-7.5 minutes behind the previous train)?

 

[JustPassingBy]

I'm assuming that by 'one path out', you mean that the late train is now running in the path of the following train, hence delaying that one too? Why does it need to overtake the train in front?

I think "one path out" here means behind a train it should be in front of. Trains on LO often alternate, e.g. Stratford from/to Richmond / Clapham Jct, so a late running train from Richmond gets stuck behind an on-time train from Clapham that it should be in front of.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I use headphones a lot and have missed lots of these announcements (when the Overground runs fast from Shoreditch High Street to Highbury and Islington) and can assure some previous posters it has nothing to do with COVID, Sadiq Kahn or whatever bugbear they have. I just like music.

If you don’t like other people experiences and opinions maybe a forum isn’t the right place for you?

 

[johnny_t]

Here's a supplemental question....

Bearing in mind that my local station is Wressle, with occasional bouts of Howden and Selby, it always seems odd to me that they bother with passenger timetables at all down in that London. When trains are going every ten to fifteen minutes, why not just turn up and hop on the next one (which is kind of how I feel the tube works, even though I assume there is some sort of operational timetable somewhere).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Here's a supplemental question....

Bearing in mind that my local station is Wressle, with occasional bouts of Howden and Selby, it always seems odd to me that they bother with passenger timetables at all down in that London. When trains are going every ten to fifteen minutes, why not just turn up and hop on the next one (which is kind of how I feel the tube works, even though I assume there is some sort of operational timetable somewhere).

On tubes that go every 1-3 minutes, then yes you do just turn up. But 10-15 minutes - nah, definitely not! Just missing a train that only goes every 15 minutes could make you very late for a meeting/class/whatever. I normally use the Elizabeth line to get into central London. That goes every 7-8 minutes, and I still very often glance at live departures just before leaving home to make sure I'm not about to just miss a train/need to walk extra-fast to avoid having to wait (Depending a bit how early I am and how time-critical whatever I'm going to is)