London Overground short forms and skip stopping

[OvergroundMatt]

London Overground has been having some trouble with its ageing class 315 fleet on the West Anglia routes recently. This has required a fair bit of short-formation, and LO has got into the habit of introducing some drastic skip-stopping, presumably to prevent overcrowding.

For example the 1545 Liverpool St - Cheshunt service this evening is formed of four carriages vice eight, and all the stops bar Seven Sisters have been whipped out until Edmonton Green. (See this tweet).

Does anyone know what the specific problems with the 315s are? Are there not enough spares - and no other stock to cover? Eg 317s, the ex TfL Rail 315s?

 

[Wolfie]

Ever since Arriva (absolutely useless!) took over this has been happening on both the North London and East London lines too. It is extremely irritating and causes no end of passenger annoyance particularly when not shown on platform indicator boards which it NEVER is.

 

[BJames]

I have also noticed this today - it appears to have happened on all the four coach services during peak times. But the 19:22 Enfield Town - Liverpool Street is only Bush Hill Park - Edmonton Green - Seven Sisters - Liverpool Street too. I have caught this service a few times and it certainly isn't busy, so not sure why this is being run as express as well? This is quieter than the 14:22 for example.

 

[LeeLivery]

Ever since Arriva (absolutely useless!) took over this has been happening on both the North London and East London lines too. It is extremely irritating and causes no end of passenger annoyance particularly when not shown on platform indicator boards which it NEVER is.

For the ELL, it seems to be bad since the May timetable change. Weekdays 18:00-19:30 is dreadful from West Croydon.

 

[Wolfie]

For the ELL, it seems to be bad since the May timetable change. Weekdays 18:00-19:30 is dreadful from West Croydon.

It's the same running out of Highbury and Islington on the ELL. It's also far from unheard of for them to run nonstop from Stratford to Highbury on the NLL ...

 

[700007]

Gospel Oak to Barking tends to skip stop more often these days running fast from either termini to South Tottenham which inconveniences a lot of commuters.

I had a skip stopping service last week which went London Liverpool Street, Hackney Downs, Walthamstow Central, Highams Park and Chingford for running 10 minutes late. The service would have been busy had it stopped at Clapton and St. James's Street as at that time of day they are well used.

 

[matt_world2004]

The busier the station they skip the bigger the fine. And they are huge for London Overground.

 

[LeeLivery]

The busier the station they skip the bigger the fine. And they are huge for London Overground.

Is there anywhere I can find the figures for fines? I can't seem to find them on the ORR website.

 

[matt_world2004]

Is there anywhere I can find the figures for fines? I can't seem to find them on the ORR website.

That's because the orr is not responsible for them as London Overground lines are devolved to the gla. The article on London reconnections gives details about the fines for mtr for stop skipping and they would be similar for London Overground.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/purple-reign-crossrail-will-run/

 

[plcd1]

That's because the orr is not responsible for them as London Overground lines are devolved to the gla. The article on London reconnections gives details about the fines for mtr for stop skipping and they would be similar for London Overground.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/purple-reign-crossrail-will-run/

Apologies for pedantry but the specification and contract management of London Overground lines is devolved to TfL on behalf of the Mayor. However I don't see how LO sit outside the national rail regulatory and safety management system controlled by ORR. They're still a TOC and subject to all national network rules. I may well be wrong but I thought LO's operating and safety performance numbers were published by ORR?

The scale of fines is somewhat academic as any bidder worth their salt will have modelled the reliability of the assets they are directly responsible for alongside a set of assumptions related to the maintenance costs in their bid and priced in a level of performance risk into their contract fees. There is a degree of financial "cushion" in all franchise bids for this sort of thing. The only time when Arriva Rail London (ARL) would be badly exposed is if reliability diverges severely off trend for a sustained period thus affecting whatever periodic averaging process there is in the performance / payment mechanism. Without seeing all the underlying assumptions and calculations it's hard to know if ARL are suffering any real financial pain. My hunch would be not for day to day performance (at the moment). I suspect they are incurring unexpected costs because of the class 710 debacle but that will be a claim back to TfL who ordered the trains. I do agree with an earlier comment that ARL do not seem as competent on fleet reliability as the old LOROL were.

 

[matt_world2004]

Apologies for pedantry but the specification and contract management of London Overground lines is devolved to TfL on behalf of the Mayor. However I don't see how LO sit outside the national rail regulatory and safety management system controlled by ORR. They're still a TOC and subject to all national network rules. I may well be wrong but I thought LO's operating and safety performance numbers were published by ORR?

The scale of fines is somewhat academic as any bidder worth their salt will have modelled the reliability of the assets they are directly responsible for alongside a set of assumptions related to the maintenance costs in their bid and priced in a level of performance risk into their contract fees. There is a degree of financial "cushion" in all franchise bids for this sort of thing. The only time when Arriva Rail London (ARL) would be badly exposed is if reliability diverges severely off trend for a sustained period thus affecting whatever periodic averaging process there is in the performance / payment mechanism. Without seeing all the underlying assumptions and calculations it's hard to know if ARL are suffering any real financial pain. My hunch would be not for day to day performance (at the moment). I suspect they are incurring unexpected costs because of the class 710 debacle but that will be a claim back to TfL who ordered the trains. I do agree with an earlier comment that ARL do not seem as competent on fleet reliability as the old LOROL were.

The performance fines are set through the franchise process. These are not fines related to the safety of their operations (which apply to all operators franchised or not) Tfl set the fines for services that have been devolved to the Mayor of London and the DfT set fines for services that are franchised nationally.


Edit:
I would imagine the dft /orr collects performance figures on devolved rail services to judge the success or lack of for rail devolution but may not know the exact amount an operator has been fined for performance failings.

 

[LeeLivery]

That's because the orr is not responsible for them as London Overground lines are devolved to the gla. The article on London reconnections gives details about the fines for mtr for stop skipping and they would be similar for London Overground.

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2014/purple-reign-crossrail-will-run/

Thank you. Those fines are rather large indeed.

 

[700007]

The London Overground Lea Valley has been doing really poorly this past week in terms of skip stopping. I have seen several stop orders put on many trains this week including a stop order a few days back on 3 consecutive trains going up the Enfield Town / Cheshunt way.

Several trains just doing Seven Sisters, Edmonton Green and then all stations to their respective destinations....

Or Walthamstow Central and then all stations to Chingford.

Hackney Downs is more increasingly being dropped as well which is a surprise and Clapton as well.

 

[Wolfie]

Last night no trains on the NLL and delays on the ELL meaning many trains were first stop Whitechapel.
Utter rubbish so-called service. Every TOC I have known Arriva run has been diabolical (even Chiltern has gone down the pan) so sadly l'm not surprised.

 

[BJames]

Sorry for reviving this old thread but...

Today I was on the 17:45 from Liverpool Street to Enfield Town. A 4 carriage Class 317. The calling pattern was not amended at all, and the train was predictably packed. It was this service: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L69818/2019/08/20/advanced which unsurprisingly had picked up 9 minutes of delay by Bush Hill Park - all of this was due to the amount of people trying to squeeze on at each station. 8 carriages is well-used enough, especially at Seven Sisters, hence why we were at Seven Sisters for 3 minutes to try and get as many on as possible - still quite a few people were left behind.

I don't understand this. A few months ago, trains were being skip-stopped daily, but not so much anymore - we've just been left to deal with the overcrowding when these short forms happen. The following train is literally four minutes later at Seven Sisters: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L69120/2019/08/20/advanced but because ours was so late, this picked up 5 minutes of delay time too.

I would have suggested that the 17:45 called Bethnal Green - Hackney Downs - Seven Sisters - Edmonton Green - Bush Hill Park - Enfield Town so that those travelling to Bethnal Green, Bush Hill Park and Enfield Town could take their expected service and not have to wait for 15 minutes, whereas those who wanted intermediate stations would have a wait of half this time and a much more pleasant journey on an 8 car train, which could definitely accommodate the extra people.

I know the 317s are ageing as well - I don't suppose there are any other 315's that we can take from TfL Rail to help out in the meantime, while we wait for the 710s to reach West Anglia? This 4 car service could have been 2x315 instead?

Which 317 unit is faulty? Is it expected back into service at any point soon?

 

[Class 170101]

I know the 317s are ageing as well - I don't suppose there are any other 315's that we can take from TfL Rail to help out in the meantime, while we wait for the 710s to reach West Anglia? This 4 car service could have been 2x315 instead?

Which 317 unit is faulty? Is it expected back into service at any point soon?

The only 315s would be at MTR but with a couple scrapped already (for spares I believe) if the 7 car 345s have been finished with between Paddington and Hayes and Harlington perhaps they could move to GE to release Class 315s but a very outside bet with long odds I would say.

 

[87015]

More likely to be a 315 shortage and a 317 sent out to cover. December could well force the hand on more 315s vice 317s as currently neither fleet is PRM compliant but 315s are a lot easier to do.

 

[BJames]

The only 315s would be at MTR but with a couple scrapped already (for spares I believe) if the 7 car 345s have been finished with between Paddington and Hayes and Harlington perhaps they could move to GE to release Class 315s but a very outside bet with long odds I would say.

More likely to be a 315 shortage and a 317 sent out to cover. December could well force the hand on more 315s vice 317s as currently neither fleet is PRM compliant but 315s are a lot easier to do.

Ah these both make sense - will be interesting to see then in a few months time.

 

[Bikeman78]

I know the 317s are ageing as well - I don't suppose there are any other 315's that we can take from TfL Rail to help out in the meantime, while we wait for the 710s to reach West Anglia? This 4 car service could have been 2x315 instead?

Which 317 unit is faulty? Is it expected back into service at any point soon?

There are 14 class 317 to cover 10 diagrams. In reality there are nearly always 12 running because the 315 fleet requires 100% availability on weekdays. On Tuesday there could have been 11 or 13 317s in traffic. The 1745 Enfield is booked for 315s.

 

[UDC]

Surely London Overground run the risk of a serious incident arising from a vulnerable passenger finding themselves at the wrong station if they do not even announce the skip stopping before passengers have boarded?

 

[BJames]

There are 14 class 317 to cover 10 diagrams. In reality there are nearly always 12 running because the 315 fleet requires 100% availability on weekdays. On Tuesday there could have been 11 or 13 317s in traffic. The 1745 Enfield is booked for 315s.

Ok so a 317 covering then, thanks.

Surely London Overground run the risk of a serious incident arising from a vulnerable passenger finding themselves at the wrong station if they do not even announce the skip stopping before passengers have boarded?

I agree - although I thought that they do normally announce this at Liverpool Street - whether this is sufficient enough to make passengers, especially those who are most vulnerable, aware of the short notice change, is a different matter. Some twitter staff also make mention when they can which I find really helpful.