London Overground - the future?

[anti-pacer]

Looking on the TfL website, I am suitably impressed on how LO has opened up so many connections from areas of London that were previously unconnected.

I last travelled on LO from Richmond-Gospel Oak in 2011, so have been unfamiliar with their services since. For example, I didn't know about the Clapham Junction-Highbury & Islington via Whitechapel, and Clapham Junction-Stratford services.

Are there plans to open up this network even more? Also, what about a kind of 'Outer Circle' line from Clapham Junction-Whitechapel-H & I-Willesden Junction-Clapham Junction? Would it work for a start?

 

[telstarbox]

Circle lines don't work well if there is disruption because trains back up around the whole line. This is why the Circle tube line has been converted to its current operation.

On the Overground circle you mention, passengers can already get between any two stations directly or with 1 change (at Clapham Junction or Highbury & Islington).

 

[Eagle]

Looking on the TfL website, I am suitably impressed on how LO has opened up so many connections from areas of London that were previously unconnected.

Not really. Other than the East London Line extension all the services of LO have existed for many years, at least as far back as the early Network SouthEast days. (Admittedly the frequencies are better now that they've ever been, and all the trains are new.)

It's just that they seem to be a lot better publicized than they were under NSE/Silverlink, both of whom treated them like Cinderella lines, whereas TfL put it on every tube map and splashed branding around everywhere, and that's the main reason for the increase in ridership.

 

[jopsuk]

LO expansion is currently the subject of much speculation and some protest- TfL have said they want to take over SE London services, but Kent County Council fear loss of capacity for Kent services if there's intense LO services to Zone 6 or just beyond.

Many have speculated about Moorgate services being taken over by LO< but that's never been an official plan as far as I know.

Running a full circle service would be operationally foolish. Circle services only properly work if you've got an entirely separate track, otherwise disruption to other services will cause big gaps and bunching to occur. Unless you have a long stop scheduled somewhere, you'll struggle to recover disruption- the Circle used to have a long pause at Aldgate before it was turned into a "teacup"

 

[Eagle]

Circle lines don't work well if there is disruption because trains back up around the whole line. This is why the Circle tube line has been converted to its current operation.

There's also the problem that the only connection between the NLL and ELL is a short transfer line at Highbury, with an abrupt change from AC to DC, which is currently locked out of use anyway.

Put simply, the circle is broken at Highbury.

 

[anti-pacer]

Not really. Other than the East London Line extension all the services of LO have existed for many years, at least as far back as the early Network SouthEast days. (Admittedly the frequencies are better now that they've ever been, and all the trains are new.)

It's just that they seem to be a lot better publicized than they were under NSE/Silverlink, both of whom treated them like Cinderella lines, whereas TfL put it on every tube map and splashed branding around everywhere, and that's the main reason for the increase in ridership.

Well my point exactly, the ELL extension has opened up more of London. For instance, if you lived in say, Wapping, you could only get a tube to Whitechapel. going north, and New Cross/New Cross Gate going south. Now you've got links to plenty of South London as well as Dalston/Highbury & Islington.

If you wanted to travel from Wapping to Gatwick Airport, previously it would have been a tube to Whitechapel, another tube to Blackfriars or Victoria, and then a train. Now you can do it with one change at Clapham Junction.

Also, I don't ever remember a direct Clapham Junction-Stratford service.

I would call that progress!

 

[Stats]

LO expansion is currently the subject of much speculation and some protest- TfL have said they want to take over SE London services, but Kent County Council fear loss of capacity for Kent services if there's intense LO services to Zone 6 or just beyond.

The DfT have rejected TfL's proposal to take over SouthEastern metro services. TfL are now concentrating their efforts on the West Anglia services which there is more of a case for being wholly within the TfL boundary.

 

[edwin_m]

A lot of LO's success has been about security. All stations have been renovated and are now staffed during service hours, the trains have CCTV and (except for the 172s) wide gangways and in my limited experience there is a considerable staff presence on the trains and platforms. Hence a lot more people are prepared to use the service, which probably means it starts to become self-policing as it is usually little-used trains and stations where people can cause trouble.

 

[bicbasher]

The DfT have rejected TfL's proposal to take over SouthEastern metro services. TfL are now concentrating their efforts on the West Anglia services which there is more of a case for being wholly within the TfL boundary.

That hasn't been made official, with only the Evening Standard publishing that story. While Kent has legitimate concerns about it, the stations affected are three. Dartford, Dunton Green and Sevenoaks. The latter would have been given Watford Junction zone status on Oyster as most would continue to use Southeastern fasts to London.

If the DfT have stopped TfL from gaining Southeastern metro services, this is based purely on politics as Kent has plenty of Tories who are set to lose their seats in future elections at the expense of SE Londoners who'd benefit from London Overground.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think its been widely circulated they turned Boris down, they also turned down the Scottish Governments attempt to run the scotrail franchise themselves when its refranchised.

 

[Chris125]

HS2 could have quite an impact on Overground, as can be seen in this powerpoint presentation from TfL's chief planner - two new stations in the OOC area, with a possible service using the Dudding Hill line.

Chris

 

[jopsuk]

The DfT have rejected TfL's proposal to take over SouthEastern metro services. TfL are now concentrating their efforts on the West Anglia services which there is more of a case for being wholly within the TfL boundary.

only Enfield, Chingford and (of late) Chesunt- the WA/Lee Valley "Metro" really goes to Hertford as well.

 

[Eagle]

only Enfield, Chingford and (of late) Chesunt- the WA/Lee Valley "Metro" really goes to Hertford as well.

And Bishop's Stortford (usually from Stratford, but during the peaks it gets mixed up with some Hertford trains going to Stratford and some Stortford trains going to Liverpool Street).

 

[Bald Rick]

If the DfT have stopped TfL from gaining Southeastern metro services, this is based purely on politics as Kent has plenty of Tories who are set to lose their seats in future elections at the expense of SE Londoners who'd benefit from London Overground.

Nothing to do with politics and everything to do with common sense, in that:

1) splitting some of the SE Metro operation out of the current franchise leads to a large increase in costs, as many trains and crew work in as Metro and go out as outer suburban and vice versa. Would TfL be prepared to have 'orange' trains operate non 'orange' services? Or vice versa?

2) having another operator in amongst the rebuilding of London Bridge complicates the project.

3) the potential for bad news during the London Bridge project may tarnish the TfL reputation.

The WA metro service is largely (although not totally) contained, and is much easier and cheaper to separate out.

 

[HSTEd]

Frankly I could see the Crossrail Concession getting folded into London Overground when the time comes, certainly in branding terms.

 

[Eagle]

Frankly I could see the Crossrail Concession getting folded into London Overground when the time comes, certainly in branding terms.

The branding for Crossrail has already been announced though; it's using a violet roundel and presumably will use a violet double-stripe if it appears on the tube map. I expect the violet will carry over to the livery in some way too.

 

[bicbasher]

Nothing to do with politics and everything to do with common sense, in that:

1) splitting some of the SE Metro operation out of the current franchise leads to a large increase in costs, as many trains and crew work in as Metro and go out as outer suburban and vice versa. Would TfL be prepared to have 'orange' trains operate non 'orange' services? Or vice versa?

2) having another operator in amongst the rebuilding of London Bridge complicates the project.

3) the potential for bad news during the London Bridge project may tarnish the TfL reputation.

The WA metro service is largely (although not totally) contained, and is much easier and cheaper to separate out.

While SE Londoners lose out on improved staffing and ticketing facilities, stations which need some TLC, the archaic position where a passenger from Slade Green, Barnehurst or Crayford has to purchase a CDR to travel to Dartford thanks to Southeastern, the lost opportunity to regain 4tph and at least 2tph to Victoria from Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill after 1900, cheaper Oyster PAYG fares......

 

[ChiefPlanner]

All good stuff - provided someone pays for it .....

(the North London line when I was associated with it had the grand total of 54 and a half station etc staff to cover Richmond / Clapham to North Woolwich) - after about 2000 , the only staff on stations was at LUL / SWT / GE and the supervisors at Willesden High Level - not a good position to be in , and explaining the poor perception and reality)

 

[SF-02]

Given the massive levels of fare evasion on Southeastern routes to Dartford (where all trains are Driver operated only and 90% of stations have no barriers a la Silverlink before London Overground) then all day staffing would have paid for itself. And I doubt people would move to buses instead as they are very slow and inconvenient in the poor SE London road network.

As it stands many don't pay, and SE wont pay for all day staffing and barriers as its a punt they aren't willing to take, and why would they when the franchise will end in a few years and franchise agreements make it pointless.

 

[Bald Rick]

While SE Londoners lose out on improved staffing and ticketing facilities, stations which need some TLC, the archaic position where a passenger from Slade Green, Barnehurst or Crayford has to purchase a CDR to travel to Dartford thanks to Southeastern, the lost opportunity to regain 4tph and at least 2tph to Victoria from Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill after 1900, cheaper Oyster PAYG fares......

None of which needs TfL, all could be resolved with flippin' great wodges of cash and a letter to southeastern.

 

[tbtc]

All good stuff - provided someone pays for it

None of which needs TfL, all could be resolved with flippin' great wodges of cash and a letter to southeastern.

That's it.

The things that LO do aren't unique - any TOC could be forced to have a high standard of service - like Scotrail's SQUIRE (Service Quality Incentive Regime).

Just like rolling out Oyster to different TOCs in apparent piecemeal fashion, there's no reason why new TOC franchises can't include a requirement for things like properly staffed stations/ "turn up and go" services) - doesn't have to have an orange stripe on it, doesn't have to be a 378 (but does need a bucket of cash to make it work)

 

[swt_passenger]

Well my point exactly, the ELL extension has opened up more of London. For instance, if you lived in say, Wapping, you could only get a tube to Whitechapel. going north, and New Cross/New Cross Gate going south. Now you've got links to plenty of South London as well as Dalston/Highbury & Islington.

Your post suggests you have ignored the concept of changing trains. :roll: Prior to the ELL being converted it was perfectly possible to make journeys across New Cross Gate with through ticketing from LU to NR.

LO has removed the need to change, that's all...

 

[SF-02]

None of which needs TfL, all could be resolved with flippin' great wodges of cash and a letter to southeastern.

The chances of it happening without TfL involved? Minimal as the DfT wont push it and the franchise holder has little incentive.

Chances of it with TfL in control as they have proposed such a plan, and all their other lines have it? Very high.

 

[jopsuk]

LO has removed the need to change, that's all...

This is a surprisingly big psychological change. You'll generally attract people if you provide a direct service, even if the previous change was easy between frequent services.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is a surprisingly big psychological change. You'll generally attract people if you provide a direct service, even if the previous change was easy between frequent services.

Undoubtedly, but I was concerned at the OP's use of 'unconnected' to imply the overall journeys were impossible previously...

 

[cle]

Does this mean that the proposed Victoria - Bromley South/Bellingham additional services via Denmark Hill are no longer on the horizon?

How about later Victoria - Dartford services? SE obviously aren't bothered unless you're from Sevenoaks or Tunbridge Wells.

 

[Antman]

Well my point exactly, the ELL extension has opened up more of London. For instance, if you lived in say, Wapping, you could only get a tube to Whitechapel. going north, and New Cross/New Cross Gate going south. Now you've got links to plenty of South London as well as Dalston/Highbury & Islington.

If you wanted to travel from Wapping to Gatwick Airport, previously it would have been a tube to Whitechapel, another tube to Blackfriars or Victoria, and then a train. Now you can do it with one change at Clapham Junction.

Also, I don't ever remember a direct Clapham Junction-Stratford service.

I would call that progress!

From Clapham Junction to Stratford SWT to Waterloo and the Jubilee Line from there would be far quicker.

The obvious route from Wapping to Gatwick is to change at New Cross Gate and East Croydon and always has been.

 

[anti-pacer]

From Clapham Junction to Stratford SWT to Waterloo and the Jubilee Line from there would be far quicker.

The obvious route from Wapping to Gatwick is to change at New Cross Gate and East Croydon and always has been.

Good point, I'd forgotten about New Cross Gate.

 

[Antman]

Circle lines don't work well if there is disruption because trains back up around the whole line. This is why the Circle tube line has been converted to its current operation.

On the Overground circle you mention, passengers can already get between any two stations directly or with 1 change (at Clapham Junction or Highbury & Islington).

There is in effect an outer circle LO line already albeit with a change of train at either Highbury & Islington or Clapham Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That hasn't been made official, with only the Evening Standard publishing that story. While Kent has legitimate concerns about it, the stations affected are three. Dartford, Dunton Green and Sevenoaks. The latter would have been given Watford Junction zone status on Oyster as most would continue to use Southeastern fasts to London.

If the DfT have stopped TfL from gaining Southeastern metro services, this is based purely on politics as Kent has plenty of Tories who are set to lose their seats in future elections at the expense of SE Londoners who'd benefit from London Overground.

There is a lot of opposition to any possible takeover of SET trains Metro services by LO as with very little spare capacity is it thought any service increases will have a detrimental effect on longer distance services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LO expansion is currently the subject of much speculation and some protest- TfL have said they want to take over SE London services, but Kent County Council fear loss of capacity for Kent services if there's intense LO services to Zone 6 or just beyond.

Many have speculated about Moorgate services being taken over by LO< but that's never been an official plan as far as I know.

Running a full circle service would be operationally foolish. Circle services only properly work if you've got an entirely separate track, otherwise disruption to other services will cause big gaps and bunching to occur. Unless you have a long stop scheduled somewhere, you'll struggle to recover disruption- the Circle used to have a long pause at Aldgate before it was turned into a "teacup"

It was only ever a pause of a few minutes at Algate and whether the current 'teacup service' is better than what went before is questionable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

None of which needs TfL, all could be resolved with flippin' great wodges of cash and a letter to southeastern.

Indeed, it's hard to see what TfL can do that SET can't with the required amount of investment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good point, I'd forgotten about New Cross Gate.

Never mind

 

[telstarbox]

There is in effect an outer circle LO line already albeit with a change of train at either Highbury & Islington or Clapham Junction.

I meant lines where the trains run in continuous circles eg the old Circle line or Glasgow Subway.