London river crossing - Overground between Wapping and Rotherhithe ought to be free.

[keiran]

Yes, thanks

But they are major very expensive projects!

 

[Mikey C]

Yes, thanks

But they are major very expensive projects!

The Silvertown tunnel will be paid for by drivers using it AND the current Blackwall tunnel. No such charging mechanism exists for a pedestrian/cyclists bridge

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Silvertown tunnel will be paid for by drivers using it AND the current Blackwall tunnel. No such charging mechanism exists for a pedestrian/cyclists bridge

Theoretically you could charge and install gatelines at either end, but the result would just be people not using it.

 

[Turtle]

You could walk through the tunnel, if you didn't mind being suffocated

There are several YouTube videos showing brave souls attempting this.

 

[gordonthemoron]

There are several YouTube videos showing brave souls attempting this.

I've seen cyclists, they didn't seem very happy

 

[Techniquest]

I feel like weighing in on this I don't often venture into this part of the forum, and I do have other things to do, but this is just my thorough forum catchup visit so why not? Perhaps it is obvious the weather is rubbish today

The notion of making LO free to use through the tunnel bit only is certainly interesting, I don't honestly know if it's worth the investment to change ticket barrier software, educate staff etc though.

Now the thing about Rotherhithe tunnel by road, that has me intrigued. I've not done it myself, but I'm interested enough to find it one day and ride through it. Suitably lit up and all that, of course! I wonder if anyone on the forum has actually tried it, and I'm all in favour of making the tunnel pedestrian and cyclist friendly.

TfL being rather short on funds doesn't help, granted, perhaps this is the era where things like crowdfunding could help? Yes it would take a lot of effort and time to do the relevant works that way, but it's just an idea which could lead to being developed into something more. There has to be a way to help cut the city's need for cars even further.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it would be extremely difficult to make it pedestrian and cyclist friendly without banning car traffic from it (or only allowing it as EVs and in one direction only), but if it was made pedestrian and cyclist only, it would be fairly easy to just cone off the entrances and put "no vehicles" signs up. It could be made nicer later.

 

[Dstock7080]

Is there any SDO on the underground where an entire carriage is out of use? I know some stations only have 1 door open in an end carriage

Baker Street eastbound Circle/H&C the 7th car doors are inhibited in SDO

 

[Techniquest]

I think it would be extremely difficult to make it pedestrian and cyclist friendly without banning car traffic from it (or only allowing it as EVs and in one direction only), but if it was made pedestrian and cyclist only, it would be fairly easy to just cone off the entrances and put "no vehicles" signs up. It could be made nicer later.

That's true. I'm guessing the ULEZ doesn't cover it? Or if it does then it doesn't really help? I'm not super familiar with London transport policy, especially when it comes anything on roads! Quite, I still haven't read the revised Highway Code yet despite it being rather beneficial for me.

So now the question becomes this (and I hope someone will happily make this into a new thread if it is felt necessary):

Rotherhithe road tunnel, if turned into pedestrian and cyclist only usage, what would the diversion for other road users be like? Would it be a big diversion around it, possibly becoming an issue elsewhere?

As a non-driver, and I have zero desire to change that, I'm very much up for converting the tunnel to pedestrians and cyclists only. With a sufficient notice period put in place for car/lorry/whatever users to replan their routes and develop new habits, maybe over a few weeks, which would also allow time for installing new signage and such like.

 

[DelW]

There is a precedent for the OP's idea of free use between adjacent stations, in the free travel between terminals at Heathrow Airport.

IIRC you have to pass through the gatelines, so needing an Oyster or debit card, but if you exit the system at another terminal the card isn't charged a fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's true. I'm guessing the ULEZ doesn't cover it? Or if it does then it doesn't really help? I'm not super familiar with London transport policy, especially when it comes anything on roads! Quite, I still haven't read the revised Highway Code yet despite it being rather beneficial for me.

Even if the ULEZ does cover it (I think it doesn't now but will in due course) a gobful of Euro 6 diesel fumes is still a gobful of diesel fumes. It's still going to be grim for a cyclist or pedestrian until zero-emissions vehicles are used.

 

[Techniquest]

Even if the ULEZ does cover it (I think it doesn't now but will in due course) a gobful of Euro 6 diesel fumes is still a gobful of diesel fumes. It's still going to be grim for a cyclist or pedestrian until zero-emissions vehicles are used.

Agreed. I followed a Borismaster on Euston Road while cycling along near St Pancras last year, and the fumes that came off it were not pleasant at all. I mean, they were black and enough to warrant noting in the trip report!

 

[miami]

Baker Street eastbound Circle/H&C the 7th car doors are inhibited in SDO

I thoguht that the first doors in the car opened?

Rotherhithe road tunnel, if turned into pedestrian and cyclist only usage, what would the diversion for other road users be like? Would it be a big diversion around it, possibly becoming an issue elsewhere?

Either over Tower Bridge, or east to Blackwall. Neither is good, so for people driving local journeys in the east it would be terrible, and a complete non-starter

especially Rotherhithe as it closeness to Canada water also cause potential capacity issues in terms of max train frequencies

You could make it free from Canada Water to Wapping if you're worried about that. Would there really be much more travel?

IIRC you have to pass through the gatelines, so needing an Oyster or debit card, but if you exit the system at another terminal the card isn't charged a fare.

You can get a paper ticket too I believe - I saw one in t5 at Heathrow last week, presumably someone had taken the tube rather than the airside bus

 

[Techniquest]

Thanks for the local knowledge on the diversion needed

Someone asked earlier in the thread if the foot tunnels in Grennwich and Woolwich were still open. Well the Greenwich one featured on a London visit late last year for me, so I'm guessing so!

 

[Ediswan]

I think it would be extremely difficult to make it pedestrian and cyclist friendly without banning car traffic from it (or only allowing it as EVs and in one direction only), but if it was made pedestrian and cyclist only, it would be fairly easy to just cone off the entrances and put "no vehicles" signs up. It could be made nicer later.

For that pattern of use, they would need to be "No motor vehicles" signs.

 

[Mikey C]

Either over Tower Bridge, or east to Blackwall. Neither is good, so for people driving local journeys in the east it would be terrible, and a complete non-starter

Especially with the Woolwich Ferry being a complete fiasco, riddled with either technical failures or industrial action

 

[telstarbox]

I've cycled through the Rotherhithe a few times on the pavement, ironically going to hospital appointments while probably reducing my life expectancy in the process. It isn't a great experience and I don't remember ever seeing a pedestrian down there.

The Greenwich and Woolwich tunnels are of course free (and open 24/7) but probably wouldn't be built today. Interestingly they have both been paralleled by the DLR extensions in the last 20 years.

The Greenwich is usually fairly busy with a mix of commuters and tourists but the Woolwich usually only has 1 or 2 people down there. I assume the main flow is people on the north side going to Woolwich as it's their nearest town centre. Maybe a few people going the other way to University of East London.

 

[AM9]

There is on the overground at the two station concerned already. Going through multiple carriages is seen a non-starter given the loadings at certain times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Feb 2022 ==


Reopening the pedestrian entrances (spiral staircases) closest to the river would be much more pleasant and reduce the underground walking distance by 750m and make the route far less diagonal across the Thames.

When I 'were a lad', I used to cycle through Rotherhithe Tunnel. The traffic moved faster than 20mph in the '50s/'60s because there was less of it but I usually cycled on the pavement down the ramp and carried the bike up the spiral staircase on the other side to get out. Personally i think there would be a very good case to stop all ICVss using the tunnel and only permit EVs up to a certain size along with cycles and pedestrians. If the ventilation is needing replacement, removing ICVs would allow a lower rate of air change on any replacement system. It would of course be a very useful reminder to drivers that EVs are the future of tunnel traffic.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Rotherhithe road tunnel, if turned into pedestrian and cyclist only usage, what would the diversion for other road users be like? Would it be a big diversion around it, possibly becoming an issue elsewhere?

The diversion for cars and lorries would be huge and unacceptable. The distances involved would be large and consequently would cause a substantial increase in vehicle emissions.

Early in the history of TfL's mismanagement of London's road system, Rotherhithe Tunnel was closed for repairs for an extended period. It caused traffic chaos and TfL caught a lot of flack. A little later the tunnel needed to be closed again and Nick Ferrari questioned the then head of TfL, whose name I can't remember, - it may have been Derek Turner - about this. The response was that TfL had learned the lesson and that massive penalties would be incurred by the contractor if the work ran over schedule. In other words, the anti motor car TfL recognised that closing Rotherhithe Tunnel had severe consequences.

 

[keiran]

Thanks for all the comments.

Drawing them all together, one could say that maybe the Rotherhithe tunnel may well become a pedestrian/cycle one (like the Greenwich and Woolwich foot tunnels) in a decade or two.
- If it becomes unmanageably costly to enact repairs so that motor vehicles can use it, and with the proposed Silvertown tunnel having opened up more vehicle capacity further east

And so in the meantime, surely enacting the small changes to render the Wapping-Rotherhithe Overground free for pedestrian use must have merit?

Added to which it seems that the proposed cycle/pedestrian bridge between Rotherhithe and Canary Wharf has been shelved and they're even looking at a cross ferry system in the interim?

 

[MattRat]

Liverpool – the Wirral has no pedestrian route and you have to pay for the train, bus or ferry or a toll if you drive through the Mersey Tunnels.

Even if there was a pedestrian route, no one would cross because of the distance. However, there is a cheaper option available if Liverpool would change the zones so the Wirral line on the Liverpool side was somehow area B. Then a 1 area Day ticket is £1.40, which seems reasonable to me for a river crossing.

In fact, we could even try applying this to London river crossings somehow, by making sure all are somehow in the same zone.

 

[Techniquest]

The diversion for cars and lorries would be huge and unacceptable. The distances involved would be large and consequently would cause a substantial increase in vehicle emissions.

Early in the history of TfL's mismanagement of London's road system, Rotherhithe Tunnel was closed for repairs for an extended period. It caused traffic chaos and TfL caught a lot of flack. A little later the tunnel needed to be closed again and Nick Ferrari questioned the then head of TfL, whose name I can't remember, - it may have been Derek Turner - about this. The response was that TfL had learned the lesson and that massive penalties would be incurred by the contractor if the work ran over schedule. In other words, the anti motor car TfL recognised that closing Rotherhithe Tunnel had severe consequences.

Thanks, then yes I would have to say for now at least (who knows what will happen in the future, after all) it is wise to leave it as it is.

 

[keiran]

I did make an FOI request to find out the amount of journeys between Wapping and Rotherhithe on the Overground, and received back what I've pasted below.

The number of daily journeys seem very small to me (compared to other journeys on the network)

In 2019, say, there were 176 journeys daily.
Charged at £1.5 = £264.
Assume the same volume is maintained throughout the year inc weekends, the total revenue for the year comes to £96,360.


This must represent a drop in the ocean for tfl (maybe a knowledgeable member of these forums can confirm/qualify).

And this amount would , I suppose, easily be offset by the increased economic activity, footfall and utility generated by helping to knit together more closely the London boroughs of Tower Hamlets and Southwark.

I believe this is a good, novel idea which really should be taken forward by someone/group who knows how to navigate/achieve this outcome



"""
Can you list for each of the last 10 years the number of journeys taken on the Overground between Wapping and Rotherhithe, and the revenue generated from these journeys.


Can you rank the revenue generated from this journey in comparison to other TFL journeys on the tube, dlr and Overground in order to demonstrate a relative measure of revenue-generation. For example, you could list the highest revenue-generating journey and amount along with the journey with the lowest such measures, or in any other way that you can easily formulate.


Please see the table below, which gives modelled estimates of journeys between Wapping and Rotherhithe stations in each direction on a typical autumn weekday. We only hold data back to 2016.

year	origin	destination	typical autumn weekday volume
2016	Rotherhithe	Wapping	73
2016	Wapping	Rotherhithe	72
2017	Rotherhithe	Wapping	70
2017	Wapping	Rotherhithe	68
2018	Rotherhithe	Wapping	90
2018	Wapping	Rotherhithe	83
2019	Rotherhithe	Wapping	92
2019	Wapping	Rotherhithe	84
2020	Rotherhithe	Wapping	37
2020	Wapping	Rotherhithe	36

Fares revenue is apportioned by mode, not by origin and destination station, so we do not hold the revenue data requested.
"""

 

[Cdd89]

In 2019, say, there were 176 journeys daily.
Charged at £1.5 = £264.

It would actually be less than £264, since the figure of 176 includes travelcards and concessionary travel.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I did make an FOI request to find out the amount of journeys between Wapping and Rotherhithe on the Overground, and received back what I've pasted below.

The number of daily journeys seem very small to me (compared to other journeys on the network)

In 2019, say, there were 176 journeys daily.
Charged at £1.5 = £264.
Assume the same volume is maintained throughout the year inc weekends, the total revenue for the year comes to £96,360.


This must represent a drop in the ocean for tfl (maybe a knowledgeable member of these forums can confirm/qualify).

And this amount would , I suppose, easily be offset by the increased economic activity, footfall and utility generated by helping to knit together more closely the London boroughs of Tower Hamlets and Southwark.

I believe this is a good, novel idea which really should be taken forward by someone/group who knows how to navigate/achieve this outcome



"""
Can you list for each of the last 10 years the number of journeys taken on the Overground between Wapping and Rotherhithe, and the revenue generated from these journeys.


Can you rank the revenue generated from this journey in comparison to other TFL journeys on the tube, dlr and Overground in order to demonstrate a relative measure of revenue-generation. For example, you could list the highest revenue-generating journey and amount along with the journey with the lowest such measures, or in any other way that you can easily formulate.


Please see the table below, which gives modelled estimates of journeys between Wapping and Rotherhithe stations in each direction on a typical autumn weekday. We only hold data back to 2016.

year	origin	destination	typical autumn weekday volume
2016	Rotherhithe	Wapping	73
2016	Wapping	Rotherhithe	72
2017	Rotherhithe	Wapping	70
2017	Wapping	Rotherhithe	68
2018	Rotherhithe	Wapping	90
2018	Wapping	Rotherhithe	83
2019	Rotherhithe	Wapping	92
2019	Wapping	Rotherhithe	84
2020	Rotherhithe	Wapping	37
2020	Wapping	Rotherhithe	36

Fares revenue is apportioned by mode, not by origin and destination station, so we do not hold the revenue data requested.
"""

Looking at the consistent disparity between passenger numbers in each direction, we might wonder whether South London will eventually be empty at this rate...