London-Shotton Off Peak Argument

[pwillo1]

More train manager woes on the famous 0829 Crewe-Euston Service

Date of Travel: Tuesday 6th December 2011. 0755 Chester 0816 Crewe 0829 - 1004 London
Ticket Type: London-Shotton Off Peak return £70.

I 'started' my return journey at Chester. My understanding being that I can do this under the TOC for the ticket (National rail conditions and Virgin ticket type VN)

After I boarded the Crewe - London leg the Train Manager (Gavin) made an announcement as follows:
"We have had ticket barriers in place at Shotton and Flint this morning so any passenger travelling with a ticket from those stations that has not had their ticket stamped will be liable to pay the full single fare of £107"

Two people in my carriage were challenged before me. One paid the £107 - the second said that there was no staff at Shotton when she got there at 0715 - the train manager said he would check and get back to her - he never did.

I produced my ticket along with a printed copy of the Ts&Cs and pointed out that as my ticket was the RETURN leg of the journey then the break of journey restriction did not apply and as such I could start at any station along the route.

he wouldn't have it:
various statements from him included.

• What I had weren't the full Ts&Cs
• I was misinterpreting what they said.
• Break of journey didn't mean starting at another station.
• i absolutely had to travel from Shotton
• There was no point stamping my tickets and it didn't matter what I said as I WOULD be paying the £107 in the end.

I still refused to pay and suggested that these were the Ts&Cs that applied when I bought my ticket so were the only Ts&Cs!

At this point he went off to phone someone and returned to state loudly.
"It's now out of my hands - revenue protection staff will be at Euston to meet you so stay on the train until they come and get you" No further explanation given and he walked off.

I waited on the train for 10 mins - until the next crew arrived - and they wondered what I was doing there still. I asked where the train manager was - and they said 'he's not here yet' - I said "no - the last one - he asked me to wait here"- and they looked at me like I was mad.

Anyway - walked off the train - there was no one around so I left the station. With my unstamped return ticket!

How can these TM's get away with this sort of behaviour - they obviously have no concept of consumer law as regards on-line purchases of tickets - or even of the Ts&Cs that apply to tickets - yet they take it upon themselves to embarrass and bully people into paying excess fares.

My specific question for the forum is regarding the clause in the Ts&Cs regarding break of journey that says it is allowed:
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.

Does this last part of the clause perhaps mean that I cannot start my journey in Chester or Crewe as then this would mean that I needed a peak time ticket. Or does the fact that 'the ticket I hold' allows arrival in Euston after 1004 irrespective of where I 'started' my journey.

 

[gordonthemoron]

that train manager shouldn't be in a customer facing role at all

 

[tannedfrog]

May I ask what the background is which led the TM to make such an announcement? What's special about Shotton tickets?

 

[EltonRoad]

Shotton is the next station along the N Wales Coast line after Chester. It has long been a source of arguments, even back in BR days, that passengers travelling Chester <-> London can sometimes avoid peak hour restrictions by buying to/from Shotton instead (where there are no/fewer restrictions than Chester).

 

[pwillo1]

Tickets from Shotton have a more favourable off-peak restriction. You can travel on any train that is timed to arrive in London after 1000 (The 0829 connection from Crewe arrives 1004). If I boarded at Crewe and break of journey was not allowed I would have to pay a peak time fare.

 

[All Line Rover]

May I ask what the background is which led the TM to make such an announcement? What's special about Shotton tickets?

Off-Peak Shotton>London tickets are valid on any train arriving in London after [10:00]. Off-Peak Chester>London tickets are valid on any train arriving in London after [11:29]. They are both the same price!

 

[pemma]

May I ask what the background is which led the TM to make such an announcement? What's special about Shotton tickets?

Flint to London and Shotton to London have a £70 Off Peak Return fare which is valid much earlier than Off Peak fares from English stations. These are much cheaper than the Chester-London and Crewe-London peak fares so many people starting at Chester and Crewe buy the Shotton-London ticket. However, the £70 fare does not allow a break in the outward journey other than to change trains so starting short is not permitted.

 

[All Line Rover]

At this point he went off to phone someone and returned to state loudly.
"It's now out of my hands - revenue protection staff will be at Euston to meet you so stay on the train until they come and get you" No further explanation given and he walked off.

I waited on the train for 10 mins - until the next crew arrived - and they wondered what I was doing there still. I asked where the train manager was - and they said 'he's not here yet' - I said "no - the last one - he asked me to wait here"- and they looked at me like I was mad.

Anyway - walked off the train - there was no one around so I left the station. With my unstamped return ticket!

Hmm... As if I haven't experienced that before! :roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

Either the Welsh Assembly or local Welsh authorities subsidise the more generous restrictions, to encourage more people to travel to and from Wales.

 

[Paul Kelly]

My specific question for the forum is regarding the clause in the Ts&Cs regarding break of journey that says it is allowed:
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.

Does this last part of the clause perhaps mean that I cannot start my journey in Chester or Crewe as then this would mean that I needed a peak time ticket. Or does the fact that 'the ticket I hold' allows arrival in Euston after 1004 irrespective of where I 'started' my journey.

I believe it is simply a catch-all statement to cover all the different ways the specific restrictions on a ticket may be phrased. In your case the ticket has restriction VN, the relevant portion of which says

These restrictions apply
Monday to Friday. By any train
on other days.

[...]

RETURN TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to ARRIVE as
shown below:

[...]

ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON
At or after 1000

* Break of journey is not
permitted on Outward Travel.

So the restrictions are phrased in terms of when the train arrives in London, and the ticket was valid on the train you were on.

Are you sure that the person who paid the £107 was on the return portion of an off-peak return? They may have been on the outward potion and might indeed have fallen foul of the break-of-journey restriction. As the others have said, you were absolutely in the right though - well done for standing your ground I say.

 

[pwillo1]

Actually not true I am led to believe - just an urban legend. the only subsidy the Welsh Assembly provide (Outside of normal operating subsidies) is the Holyhead-Cardiff route. These off-peak restrictions are a throwback to BR days, heightened in recent years by more punitive restrictions being applied by Virgin trains.

 

[pemma]

Either the Welsh Assembly or local Welsh authorities subsidise the more generous restrictions, to encourage more people to travel to and from Wales.

I've heard from people living in Wales that it is down to a Welsh Assembly subsidy but when I posted that on here a couple of people said that was wrong and Virgin just offer cheaper fares to the Welsh stations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

These off-peak restrictions are a throwback to BR days, heightened in recent years by more punitive restrictions being applied by Virgin trains.

The question then would be why have Virgin got tighter on peak restrictions from English and Scottish stations and leave them relaxed at Welsh stations?

 

[pwillo1]

Flint to London and Shotton to London have a £70 Off Peak Return fare which is valid much earlier than Off Peak fares from English stations. These are much cheaper than the Chester-London and Crewe-London peak fares so many people starting at Chester and Crewe buy the Shotton-London ticket. However, the £70 fare does not allow a break in the outward journey other than to change trains so starting short is not permitted.

But I was on the return leg....

 

[All Line Rover]

But I was on the return leg....

I'm not suggesting you did this, but that's a very clever (and completely valid) way to travel on a peak Chester or Crewe to London service.

Chester to London SOS - £113.50, London to Shotton SVR - £70 (use return portion only)

Crewe to London SOS - £107.00, London to Shotton SVR - £70 (use return portion only)

Some hefty savings there!

It even works for Runcorn to London (SOS £130.50), Warrington to London (SOS £130.50) and - if you're pushing it - Manchester to London (SOS £139.50) - HALF PRICE!

 

[pwillo1]

I only have to pay the once as I work in London during the week and start my journey there as opposed to Shotton. I actually meet the requirements on the outward leg as I DO actually travel to Shotton and then to Upton-Merseyside (Which is my local station). The reason I join the service at Chester on the return is that there is no train early enough from Upton-Shotton to meet the connection so I travel Birkenhead -Chester.

In fact - London to Upton is another anomaly. (I am travelling this route tomorrow). The 1807 from London to Upton is off-peak via Liverpool. The 1807 London to Liverpool is a peak service. Shall I expect more fun with TM's tomorrow??
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It even works for Runcorn to London (SOS £130.50), Warrington to London (SOS £130.50) and - if you're pushing it - Manchester to London (SOS £139.50) - HALF PRICE!

How does it work via Runcorn?? Shotton/Runcorn/Liverpool never comes up as a routing?

 

[All Line Rover]

How does it work via Runcorn?? Shotton/Runcorn/Liverpool never comes up as a routing?

Shotton>Runcorn East>Runcorn>Euston is a permitted route according to the Routeing Guide, and is quite a reasonable route in all honesty.

 

[pemma]

But I was on the return leg....

I was responding to the question about tannedfrog's question regarding Shotton tickets opposed to referring to your experience.

 

[pwillo1]

various statements from him included.

• What I had weren't the full Ts&Cs
• I was misinterpreting what they said.
• Break of journey didn't mean starting at another station.
• i absolutely had to travel from Shotton
• There was no point stamping my tickets and it didn't matter what I said as I WOULD be paying the £107 in the end.

Oh and another one:
The ToD CTR collection code on the bottom of my ticket and collection recepit meant I had bought my ticket in Chester. Even though the collection receipt clearly stated that the ticket was issued at Euston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was responding to the question about tannedfrog's question regarding Shotton tickets opposed to referring to your experience.

Apologies..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Shotton>Runcorn East>Runcorn>Euston is a permitted route according to the Routeing Guide, and is quite a reasonable route in all honesty.

I can just see me trying to explain that one to an irate TM

 

[LexyBoy]

What a farce. Virgin - either finish what you've started and make every train you run a peak service, or stop with the draconian BoJ restrictions. The fact that your staff can't get their heads around ticket restrictions should be a clue that things have got out of hand.

Not to get started on the guard's claim that tickets would not be valid if they hadn't been stamped. Been taking lessons from Northern have they?

I'm not suggesting you did this, but that's a very clever (and completely valid) way to travel on a peak Chester or Crewe to London service.

The fact that OP had the T&Cs to hand and was prepared to argue the point suggests that this is exactly what they were doing. If it's a regular journey there's not even any need to throw away the outward ticket (except on the first trip, assuming travel is from Chester to London).

 

[cymro inside]

word of caution to anyone at Chester thinking of using an off peak outward portion from Flint or Shotton to London sx, im told that the guard of the 0643 atw service from Chester to Crewe is the guard that works in to Chester on the connection from LLandudno Junction,anyone boarding at Chester with an outward portion from Flint or Shotton that hasn,t been nipped will be excessed to the full fare.

 

[All Line Rover]

word of caution to anyone at Chester thinking of using an off peak outward portion from Flint or Shotton to London sx, im told that the guard of the 0643 atw service from Chester to Crewe is the guard that works in to Chester on the connection from LLandudno Junction,anyone boarding at Chester with an outward portion from Flint or Shotton that hasn,t been nipped will be excessed to the full fare.

No you won't. Providing you do not leave station premises, you are not breaking your journey. So you are fully entitled to take a service from Flint to Chester, go to Costa Coffee in Chester station for 1 hour, and then take another service from Chester to Crewe. I've no idea why anyone would do that, but it's perfectly valid!

 

[LexyBoy]

word of caution to anyone at Chester thinking of using an off peak outward portion from Flint or Shotton to London sx, im told that the guard of the 0643 atw service from Chester to Crewe is the guard that works in to Chester on the connection from LLandudno Junction,anyone boarding at Chester with an outward portion from Flint or Shotton that hasn,t been nipped will be excessed to the full fare.

And if they were on an earlier train into Chester? Or in the loo when the guard came round?

No you won't. shouldn't

Fixed that for you

 

[All Line Rover]

What a farce. Virgin - either finish what you've started and make every train you run a peak service, or stop with the draconian BoJ restrictions.

Perhaps Virgin should consider removing their abhorrent Peak restrictions, which cause horrendous congestion on many "Off-Peak" services and mean many "Peak" services cart around fresh air?

I wait for the day when BoJ restrictions are removed for all tickets except Advance tickets...

 

[Paul Kelly]

Oh and another one:
The ToD CTR collection code on the bottom of my ticket and collection recepit meant I had bought my ticket in Chester.

I don't know what CTR stands for, but I'm pretty sure it's not Chester - any ToD ticket I've ever seen says "ToD CTR" at the bottom.

 

[pwillo1]

I don't know what CTR stands for, but I'm pretty sure it's not Chester - any ToD ticket I've ever seen says "ToD CTR" at the bottom.

Exactly. I know that - you know that - but he didn't - and he's the one 'authorised' to charge people excess fares.

 

[bengolding]

For the TM to make an announcement over the tannoy after departure suggests Virgin are aware that many people are taking advantage of this loophole. Not heard of a Manchester based Gavin TM before but I would write a strongly worded letter to Tony Collins. Virgin hate bad PR, so why not contact your local newspaper to take this up? Awful service in my opinion. In my experience, I find it's the Manchester/Preston-based Virgin TMs that are the worst.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not heard of a Manchester based Gavin TM before but I would write a strongly worded letter to Tony Collins. Virgin hate bad PR, so why not contact your local newspaper to take this up?

Or, why not write to Tony Collins first, and see what he says and does about it before getting the press involved? Otherwise, why bother writing to him in the first place? Of course, if Tony tells you to sling your hook, then by all means get the press involved!

It is a very simple matter. The TM was wrong, and we can all see this. Maybe he is reading this now and cringeing - who knows? Fortunately the OP did not hand over any money, so therefore the TM (whom, in fairness, you shouldn't have named) should be offered guidance to correct the mistake. Open and shut.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

 

[pwillo1]

Understand your point about malice v stupidity but at the end of the day he embarrassed, upset and ultimately threatened me with security guards at the end of journey and didn't even have decency to come to me to say I could leave the train. He just walked off.

 

[pemma]

After I boarded the Crewe - London leg the Train Manager (Gavin) made an announcement as follows:

Last time there was a similar thread the train manger was called Paul: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44761&page=3

It sounds like there are multiple Virgin staff poorly trained.

Incidentally the last time I travelled on a Virgin trains service there was a Glasgow based TM who had stamped my ticket. He came through the train again after the next station and after stamping a few tickets he looked at me and said something like "Where's your ticket?" I said he'd already seen it and got ready to get it out again but he walked off mumbling something. It wasn't a problem like described in the original post but seemed very non-customer friendly.

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh no, I don't disagree that it was a bad experience. We can only guess at what made the TM behave like that - we don't know for sure.

But equally I don't think it is equitable that the TM has been named on a public forum. Colleagues of his will certainly read this forum. People make mistakes, they have bad days and so on. Who out of all if us can honestly say we've never made a massive mistake, or series of mistakes at work? Maybe when the TM got off and spoke to Revenue they put him right? I can hold my hand up and say I've made mistakes of similar magnitude in my working life and felt a right prat when I've realised my error.

It certainly wasn't right that you were left on the train by yourself at the end. Someone really ought to have seen you, whether it be Revenue Protection or the TM himself (I suspect the TM possibly had another train to work, or had to take a mandatory break).

Definitely a bad experience, which is a shame.