London Terminals Ticket.

[Somewhere]

That really isn't how the fares work.

It does seem to be in the London area

 

[Haywain]

Since you think so, perhaps you can provide examples.

 

[Somewhere]

Since you think so, perhaps you can provide examples.

Explain how it works then? It used to be the case that a ticket from somewhere to a station in Zone 1 was the fare to London plus the London Underground Zone 1 fare. If this is still the case outside London, then why isn't this the case inside London?

 

[redreni]

TfL have a long standing strategy to reduce and, eventually, remove the use of paper tickets. It has many advantages both for TfL and the vast majority of users.

I'll be fine with that as soon as they sort out acceptance of e-tickets for cross-London journeys and journeys to or from a LU zone.

Until then I reserve the right to point out that PAYG is not a particularly good alternative to a prepaid ticket issued against an itinerary for those making national rail through journeys going outside the PAYG area, especially if connecting onto a long distance train for which the passenger holds an advance ticket. And it's not a good option most of the time for journeys within the contactless area if you hold a Network Railcard. If it can be made into a good option then I'll be all for it.

That really isn't how the fares work.

Agreed, the paper single tickets to a zone 1 LU station are very poor value compared to PAYG (even if you pay over distance and put Dartford as the origin), but they don't appear to be based on London Terminals plus an add-on.

The London Terminals single tickets are even worse value.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Broadly speaking:

• Add-ons to LU/DLR zonal destinations are priced based on the Peak Pay As You Go fare for the relevant zones, with a Return add-on being priced at double the Single. For example: High Wycombe to Leicester Square would be issued as High Wycombe to Zone U1.
• Tickets should be issued to all the zones required. For GTR (ex-Southern) origins outside of the zonal area, this is almost always Zones 1-6 (aka Zone U1256); for Greater Anglia/London Overground, where you have the option of changing to the Victoria Line at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters, in addition to the sub-surface lines, Elizabeth Line and Central Line at Liverpool Street, it should be Zones 1-3 (aka Zone U123.)
• For journeys involving a National Rail station inside the zonal area to/from a London Underground or DLR station, the add-on is based on all of the zones crossed, regardless of whether that's by NR or TfL services. For example: Falconwood (Zone 4) to Arsenal (Zone 2) via London would be issued as Falconwood to Zones 1-4 (aka Zone U1234.)

 

[Haywain]

Explain how it works then? It used to be the case that a ticket from somewhere to a station in Zone 1 was the fare to London plus the London Underground Zone 1 fare. If this is still the case outside London, then why isn't this the case inside London?

I do not need to explain anything. You have made a statement which you cannot back up with an example.

 

[redreni]

Broadly speaking:

• Add-ons to LU/DLR zonal destinations are priced based on the Peak Pay As You Go fare for the relevant zones, with a Return add-on being priced at double the Single. For example: High Wycombe to Leicester Square would be issued as High Wycombe to Zone U1.
• Tickets should be issued to all the zones required. For GTR (ex-Southern) origins outside of the zonal area, this is almost always Zones 1-6 (aka Zone U1256); for Greater Anglia/London Overground, where you have the option of changing to the Victoria Line at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters, in addition to the sub-surface lines, Elizabeth Line and Central Line at Liverpool Street, it should be Zones 1-3 (aka Zone U123.)
• For journeys involving a National Rail station inside the zonal area to/from a London Underground or DLR station, the add-on is based on all of the zones crossed, regardless of whether that's by NR or TfL services. For example: Falconwood (Zone 4) to Arsenal (Zone 2) via London would be issued as Falconwood to Zones 1-4 (aka Zone U1234.)

Okay, so if it's not based on the London Terminals fare I'd better leave it there as this is a tangent.

It does make tickets very expensive at weekends, though. Which wouldn't be so bad if one could have the slightest confidence that TOCs would not use the fact you'd used PAYG for part of your journey to shirk their responsibilities in the event of disruption ("that disruption was announced before you tapped in, mate" or "I can't check your ticket if it's an Oyster card, mate") and leave one having to buy a very expensive additional walk-up ticket.

 

[Somewhere]

I do not need to explain anything. You have made a statement which you cannot back up with an example.

I have made a statement based upon previous posts within this thread. I have asked how fares are worked out - there is no need to be so rude and obstructive. I used to work in ticket offices, so I am well aware of how fares used to be worked out.
Obviously things have become quite complicated since I stopped working in ticket offices, and I am simply asking how it works these days, as it does not seem to be as simple as it used to be.
It never used to be the case where you had to pay for U Zones when you are not passing through them

Broadly speaking:

• Add-ons to LU/DLR zonal destinations are priced based on the Peak Pay As You Go fare for the relevant zones, with a Return add-on being priced at double the Single. For example: High Wycombe to Leicester Square would be issued as High Wycombe to Zone U1.
• Tickets should be issued to all the zones required. For GTR (ex-Southern) origins outside of the zonal area, this is almost always Zones 1-6 (aka Zone U1256); for Greater Anglia/London Overground, where you have the option of changing to the Victoria Line at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale or Seven Sisters, in addition to the sub-surface lines, Elizabeth Line and Central Line at Liverpool Street, it should be Zones 1-3 (aka Zone U123.)
• For journeys involving a National Rail station inside the zonal area to/from a London Underground or DLR station, the add-on is based on all of the zones crossed, regardless of whether that's by NR or TfL services. For example: Falconwood (Zone 4) to Arsenal (Zone 2) via London would be issued as Falconwood to Zones 1-4 (aka Zone U1234.)

I am having difficulty understanding why a ticket including more U Zones needs to be issued to someone for more zones than they need

 

[MrJeeves]

I am having difficulty understanding why a ticket including more U Zones needs to be issued to someone for more zones than they need

This is basically a GTR-only thing as far as I'm aware, with the internal knowledgbase basically saying "Southern do this" with no expansion on the reasoning for it:

Southern 'Out-boundary' stations issue through tickets on the ‘Train Tube’ basis. For example, tickets with availability in Zone 1 will be issued to London Underground Zones 1-6 (U1256).

I don't know if CyrusWuff's post is worded poorly or I'm simply misunderstanding it, but surely this itself is a contradiction:

• For example: High Wycombe to Leicester Square would be issued as High Wycombe to Zone U1.
• Tickets should be issued to all the zones required. For GTR (ex-Southern) origins outside of the zonal area, this is almost always Zones 1-6 (aka Zone U1256)

What makes a zone "required"? Why is GTR special in requiring the tickets to seemingly include all zones passed through, while the example on Chiltern doesn't need this? They're both journeys from outside the TfL zonal area to the TfL zonal area, aren't they?

 

[Somewhere]

That's the thing - you haven't passed through the U Zones unless you're on the Underground or DLR.
R Zones are different
It never used to be that way

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't know if CyrusWuff's post is worded poorly or I'm simply misunderstanding it, but surely this itself is a contradiction:

What makes a zone "required"? Why is GTR special in requiring the tickets to seemingly include all zones passed through, while the example on Chiltern doesn't need this? They're both journeys from outside the TfL zonal area to the TfL zonal area, aren't they?

Probably bad paraphrasing of Knowledgebase on my part. Essentially there are two pricing options:

• Those to/from stations within the London Zonal Area, where tickets are issued for all of the zones passed through, regardless of whether that's on an NR or LU/DLR service (e.g. Zones 1-4 in the Falconwood - Arsenal example.)
• Those to/from stations outside the London Zonal Area, where the ticket is usually only issued for the zones from the point you change to LU/DLR services (e.g. Zone 1 only in the High Wycombe - Marylebone - Leicester Square example.)

As for why there's a difference, that's lost in the mists of time and I suspect those responsible aren't in the industry any more.