London Thameslink - London Terminals confusion

[grove]

I travel intermittently on weekdays, off-peak from the Arun Valley line to St Pancras. The map of the route here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-London.aspx#Terminals says that in order to make his journey you need a "London Thameslink" ticket. However, when you attempt to purchase said ticket on the Southern website it recognises the London Thameslink ticket but actually sells you a London Terminals ticket. Have the two now been merged and is the National rail website out of date?

My London Terminals ticket operated at St Pancras without any problem.

Thanks.

 

[JonathanH]

Have the two now been merged and is the National rail website out of date?

No, they have not been merged. You need a London Thameslink ticket to go to Farringdon or St Pancras from the south. The fact that the barriers accept a London Terminals ticket at St Pancras is not an indication that it is valid there, just a limitation on the programming of the barriers.

 

[grove]

No, they have not been merged. You need a London Thameslink ticket to go to Farringdon or St Pancras from the south. The fact that the barriers accept a London Terminals ticket at St Pancras is not an indication that it is valid there, just a limitation on the programming of the barriers.

So how do you actually purchase one for the future? I kept screenshots of the process as it switches from "Thameslink" to "Terminals".

 

[Hadders]

This is very poor from SWR.
I’d try an alternative retailer or specify that you’re going to Farringdon, which isn’t a London Terminal so the London Thameslink ticket should be sold.

 

[JonathanH]

This is very poor from SWR.

It is Southern.

I had a look at the booking website. It shows two identical fares, one with the ticket apparently issued to the relevant station, and one issued to London Thameslink. However, what the OP appeared to indicate was that it was issuing a London Terminals ticket even when London Thameslink is specified.

https://ticket.southernrailway.com/...wCheapest=no&step=outward-fare&tocSpecific=no

However, the price of £29.70 for an off-peak day return appears to correspond to the London Thameslink price. The London Terminals price is £29.60.

 

[Alex365Dash]

I’d try an alternative retailer or specify that you’re going to Farringdon, which isn’t a London Terminal so the London Thameslink ticket should be sold.

I'd still be careful there - there are fares set from e.g. Arundel to Farringdon specifically as well as London Thameslink, so you'd still need to have the correct destination on your ticket!

EDIT: as well as, not rather than.

 

[Hadders]

It is Southern.

My bad

In that case GTR really ought to know better.

I'd still be careful there - there are fares set from e.g. Arundel to Farringdon specifically rather than London Thameslink, so you'd still need to have the correct destination on your ticket!

BR Fares suggests they are issued to London Thameslink.

 

[Haywain]

My bad

In that case GTR really ought to know better.


BR Fares suggests they are issued to London Thameslink.

There are fares to London Terminals, London Thameslink and London St Pancras. Goodness knows how a retailing site is meant to distinguish them. However, the OP might want to consider buying a ticket to Kentish Town which would remove any risk of ambiguity and give extra validity.

 

[alistairlees]

I travel intermittently on weekdays, off-peak from the Arun Valley line to St Pancras. The map of the route here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-London.aspx#Terminals says that in order to make his journey you need a "London Thameslink" ticket. However, when you attempt to purchase said ticket on the Southern website it recognises the London Thameslink ticket but actually sells you a London Terminals ticket. Have the two now been merged and is the National rail website out of date?

My London Terminals ticket operated at St Pancras without any problem.

Thanks.

Can you put your journey details in so the problem can be investigated?
- where from?
- date of travel?
- time of travel
- single or return?

 

[grove]

Can you put your journey details in so the problem can be investigated?
- where from?
- date of travel?
- time of travel
- single or return?

- where from? Horsham
- date of travel? 23/01/2023
- time of travel 0855
- single or return? Return

 

[alistairlees]

- where from? Horsham
- date of travel? 23/01/2023
- time of travel 0855
- single or return? Return

Thanks. I may be missing something, but the return tickets I see at southernrailway.com for this journey (and with a return time of 17.00 on the same day selected, with one adult and no railcard) are:
- £26.80 Off-Peak Day Travelcard (not valid on Gatwick Express)
- £29.70 Off-Peak Day Return to London St Pancras (not valid on London Underground)
- £29.70 Off-Peak Day Return to London Thameslink (not valid on London Underground)
- £35.80 Off-Peak Day Travelcard
- (various singles and 1st class options, not included here)

I don't see any fare to London Terminals (that is valid to London St Pancras; there is one but it's only valid so far as City Thameslink, so doesn't show here).

This is a route that is ripe for massive fares simplification.

I haven't bought the ticket, but when it's in my basket I don't see it changing from London Thameslink either.

Am I missing something?

 

[grove]

This is interesting then. If I enter "London Thameslink" 0900 out, 1700 return I get a fare of £25.20.

When I click "Add to basket" the fare remains the same but the ticket becomes "London Terminals".

 

[alistairlees]

You searched for a journey to London Thameslink and not to London at pancras?

 

[Haywain]

This is interesting then. If I enter "London Thameslink" 0900 out, 1700 return I get a fare of £25.20.

When I click "Add to basket" the fare remains the same but the ticket becomes "London Terminals".

View attachment 127527

View attachment 127526

I will again suggest that you look at tickets to Kentish Town.

 

[js517]

So how do you actually purchase one for the future? I kept screenshots of the process as it switches from "Thameslink" to "Terminals".

You can search with St Pancras as the destination. This offers the London Thameslink fare you want.

 

[grove]

I will again suggest that you look at tickets to Kentish Town.

You are correct of course. Thank you.

 

[Deerfold]

This is interesting then. If I enter "London Thameslink" 0900 out, 1700 return I get a fare of £25.20.

When I click "Add to basket" the fare remains the same but the ticket becomes "London Terminals".

View attachment 127527

View attachment 127526

It may not be obvious to the average punter unfamiliar with the three letter codes for stations, but that's showing you trips to London Bridge and is then selling you a (correct) ticket to London Terminals.

 

[Haywain]

It may not be obvious to the average punter unfamiliar with the three letter codes for stations, but that's showing you trips to London Bridge and is then selling you a (correct) ticket to London Terminals.

Presumably because selecting London Bridge is seen as the first available station in the London Thameslink group.

 

[grove]

So you select "London Thameslink" from the available options and it translates it to "LBG", thereby giving you possibly an incorrect fare. Is there a code for London Thameslink?

Presumably because selecting London Bridge is seen as the first available station in the London Thameslink group.

It all feels like a poor bit of coding behind the scenes. Designed maybe to 'simplify' but then introduces an error!

 

[Haywain]

It all feels like a poor bit of coding behind the scenes. Designed maybe to 'simplify' but then introduces an error!

The problem (if it is a problem) is that journey planners are generally designed to give the fastest journey available and that is achieved by giving results to the first of the group that the train comes to. If you want to go to Waterloo from Horsham would you just select London Terminals? No, because you wouldn't get those results. In the same way if you want journeys to St Pancras you need to select St Pancras as the destination station.

 

[AM9]

So you select "London Thameslink" from the available options and it translates it to "LBG", thereby giving you possibly an incorrect fare. Is there a code for London Thameslink?


It all feels like a poor bit of coding behind the scenes. Designed maybe to 'simplify' but then introduces an error!

I don't think there are station codes for the following groups of stations but they are all part of specific flow destinations:

London Thameslink has a flow destination of 4452 (which includes all the TL core stations plus Euston)​

London Terminals has a flow destination of 1072 (which includes all the TL core stations except elephant & Castle and Farringdon)​

London Zones 1-6 has a flow destination of 0035​

 

[plugwash]

The problem is IMO twofold.

1. Planner based sales systems are oriented primerally around selling the cheapest tickets for inflexible journeys. They sell flexible tickets as well but it feels something of an afterthought. So rather than the flow being "select an orogin and destination, see a list of tickets and buy one" the flow is "select an origin, destination and time, see a list of trains between that origin and destination and then see tickets that are valid on one of those trains.
2. London has an exceptionally messy fares structure, with overlapping station groups, and the rule that a London Terminals ticket is only valid to arrive in London not cross it.

If a user specifically asks for "London Thameslink" they probablly want a ticket that has the flexibility to travel to any thameslink station but that simply doesn't fit the model of planner based sales.

 

[Haywain]

If a user specifically asks for "London Thameslink" they probably want a ticket that has the flexibility to travel to any thameslink station but that simply doesn't fit the model of planner based sales.

They might well want that flexibility but how would the journey planner know which station is the destination?

 

[AM9]

They might well want that flexibility but how would the journey planner know which station is the destination?

Why would it need to know, the stations that a London Thameslink ticket is valid to/from is well defined. All trains that pass through the core stop at all stations in that route through the core.*
*Euston is the exception but that would require a separate itinerary