London to Oxford via Bicester

[maniacmartin]

Hi,

I'd like to make a journey soon, London to Oxford, going out from Marylebone and changing at Banbury, and would like to check that I haven't missed something obvious.

I think I can do this with map CS. This would involve doubling back through King's Sutton, but its a member of the Banbury Routeing Group so I'm thinking this would be allowed.


I wouldn't mind instead changing at Bicester (walking between Bicester North and Bicester Town) but I can't see any mapped routes that allow it, however
Paddington - Oxford via Reading = ~63 miles

Marylebone - Bicester North = ~ 54 miles
Bicester Town - Oxford = ~ 11 miles
Total rail miles changing at Bicester = ~65 miles
Would this be allowed under the 3 mile rule, or does it not count as it involves a walk? I'm able to plan journeys on WebTIS where it recommends this walking interchange (e.g. Islip to Haddenham & Thame Parkway)

 

[yorkie]

Walks do not determine the shortest route. But providing the interchange is an official one then if the route involving walking is within 3 miles longer than the shortest route (in some cases it may be shorter) then I'd say it's valid.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm a bit confused by your post yorkie. Are you saying that the distance travelled on foot is excluded from the total distance ie only "rail" miles are counted?

 

[yorkie]

I'm a bit confused by your post yorkie. Are you saying that the distance travelled on foot is excluded from the total distance ie only "rail" miles are counted?

The distance between stations is zero. You can only do a walk if it is part of an official recognised interchange.

For example, the shortest route from Halifax to Shipley is via Leeds. However it is valid to go via Bradford which involves a walk (which is a shorter route than the shortest route by rail, and incidentally a cheaper ticket exists for that option). The walk itself is 0 rail miles and transfer between Bradford FS <> Bradford Int is a recognised interchange.

 

[oversteer]

Hi,

I'd like to make a journey soon, London to Oxford, going out from Marylebone and changing at Banbury, and would like to check that I haven't missed something obvious.

There are quite a few easements covering stations in this area I think you need to be mindful of:

Easement 42:
Journeys from or via London to Bicester North may not go via Bicester Town
and journeys from or via London to Bicester Town may not go via Bicester
North. This prohibition applies in both directions.

Easement 52:
Journeys from stations south of Kings Sutton may not go via Banbury to
London nor via Banbury and London to stations beyond London. This
prohibition applies in both directions.

Easement 30132
Journeys to Bicester North may not go via Oxford and Bicester Town.
Journeys to Biceser Town must go via Oxford. These easements apply in
both directions.

Easement 700028
Customers travelling from Bicester North to Oxford and beyond, may travel
via Banbury. This easement applies in both directions

Easement 700243:
Customers travelling via Oxford to Bicester North in possession of tickets
routed "Not Via London" may travel via Kings Sutton and/or Banbury. This
easement applies in both directions.

 

[wintonian]

I think he means that (assuming it is an official interchange) if the shortest rout involves walking then it is not counted as the shortest route and so for the purposes of the routing guide it is the shortest route wholly by rail.

If however there is a route available that involves walking that is within 3 miles of the shortest route wholly by rail (which my on occasion be shorter than the shortest route wholly by rail) then in yorkies opinion it would be valid.

 

[maniacmartin]

Thanks oversteer. I hate negative easements and wish they'd just fix the maps instead.

My reading of the easements you posted leads me to believe I can take route changing at Bicester, but not the one changing at Banbury (assuming journeys to or from a station does not include journeys via a station)

 

[oversteer]

Just throwing them in there . If you use the journey planner to route Marylebone to Oxford via Bicester Town it will recommend a single ticket walking from Bicester North to Bicester Town ..

 

[yorkie]

Regarding the easements, 2 points:-

1) None of those easements apply to a London to Oxford ticket.

2) Easements do not apply to routes that are valid due to the shortest route rule (however I am aware of the argument that we are only aware that the shortest route rule includes routes up to 3 miles longer by reading the routeing guide in detail and therefore some people argue that if you read the routeing guide then the easements contained within the guide do apply, so some people do differ in their opinions on this, however it is not relevant in this case due to point 1 above!)

 

[maniacmartin]

Regarding the easements, 2 points:-

1) None of those easements apply to a London to Oxford ticket.

I believe easement 52 would apply to a London to Oxford via Banbury as the reverse applies and then we're told the easement applies in both directions. (But this would not apply to a journey doing the walking interchange at Bicester)

Easement 52:
Journeys from stations south of Kings Sutton may not go via Banbury to
London nor via Banbury and London to stations beyond London. This
prohibition applies in both directions.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks to everyone who commented. I always forget to check the easements I'm going to make the journey, changing at Bicester Town.

 

[barrykas]

If you want the option of going out one way and back the other, the official line is to get a London - Banbury return (£27.50 for a Super Off-Peak) and a Bicester Town - Oxford (or vice versa, as appropriate).

The National Rail site, Journey Planner (the replacement for RJIS) and FasTIS all suggest that a ticket to Islip is also valid for such a journey, with the walk from Bicester North to Bicester Town.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[maniacmartin]

Thanks barrykas. The Islip ticket looks to be the same price and will probably save me hassle arguing at the gateline etc.

 

[bb21]

I don't think you can travel via Banbury on a London Terminals - Oxford ticket due to Easement 52. However I agree that you may go via either Reading or Bicester due to the 3-mile rule.

[Table 116] London Paddington - Reading - Oxford: 63.5 miles;
Total: 63.5 miles

[Table 116] Oxford - Bicester Town: 11.75 miles;
[Table 115] Bicester North - London Marylebone: 54.75 miles;
Total: 66.5 miles

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Don't Chiltern offer a through ticket to 'Bicester Village' which includes bus travel between Bicester North and the Bicester Village Outlet whcih is next to Bicester Town station in case you wanted to eliminate the walk ?
I think the bus by itself was £2.25 each way.

http://www.bicestervillage.com/en/plan-your-visit/getting-here/getting-here-by-train

I think the through train/bus ticket is from Marylebone to Bicester Village (including shuttle).

 

[bb21]

The Bicester Village Day Ranger is still available, however it would appear that the ticket is issued as a normal return between London Terminals [NLC 1072] and Bicester Village [NLC H921] rather than a ranger.

 

[barrykas]

The Bicester Village Day Ranger is still available, however it would appear that the ticket is issued as a normal return between London Terminals [NLC 1072] and Bicester Village [NLC H921] rather than a ranger.

It's available as either a Ranger or a conventional Return. The Ranger was basically created to reduce the number of coupons produced for groups. It's also the easiest way to issue one with a Network Railcard or Gold Card discount, as FasTIS doesn't apply the Railcard discount to the combined ticket for some strange reason, so you otherwise have to issue separate train and bus tickets.

Sadly, the Day Ranger isn't any use for groups like 1 Adult and 2 Children or 2 Adults and 1 Child, where Groupsave works for the train (counting the Child as an Adult) but not for the bus, so such groups end up with four coupons per person.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[yorkie]

I believe easement 52 would apply to a London to Oxford via Banbury as the reverse applies and then we're told the easement applies in both directions. (But this would not apply to a journey doing the walking interchange at Bicester).

Sorry, I was looking at the thread title of changing at Bicester (and I wouldn't consider changing at Banbury for Oxford - it's asking for trouble unless you had an itinerary from a booking engine!). I agree it does apply if going via Banbury, but it is not applicable to changing at Bicester.

 

[cjp]

Sorry, I was looking at the thread title of changing at Bicester (and I wouldn't consider changing at Banbury for Oxford - it's asking for trouble unless you had an itinerary from a booking engine!). I agree it does apply if going via Banbury, but it is not applicable to changing at Bicester.

It is a times like this I wish I had attended the Fares Workshop because i do not understand this.

This is restriction 52 (I refuse to call to abuse the language by calling it an an easement) as set out above.

Journeys from stations south of Kings Sutton may not go via Banbury to London nor via Banbury and London to stations beyond London.
This prohibition applies in both directions.

I read this a being if you start your journey to the south of Kings Sutton and you are going to London or travelling on beyond London you have to head directly to London you cannot go to Banbury to pick a faster train and in the other direction you cannot go to your station (which is South of Kings Sutton) via Banbury so as to use a faster train.

As an aside I believe there is an easement that lets Kings Sutton passengers pick a train to Banbury (eg. FGW) and travel to London via Banbury.

In the case of the OP his journey was to and from Oxford which as far as I can see in railway terms is not South of Kings Sutton and so does not apply.
I admit I have not got out an atlas to see if all or any of Kings Sutton is North or South of the Oxford conurbation but having to consult the national Conditions of Carriage and an Atlas before travelling is going beyond reasonable.
If I am right, and I may not be of course, it will not be this restriction that stops them travelling via Banbury.

Over to you experts - Yorkie? Anyone?

 

[maniacmartin]

In the case of the OP his journey was to and from Oxford which as far as I can see in railway terms is not South of Kings Sutton

Oxford is south of Kings Sutton (Google map)

I don't think it is reasonable to ask a passenger to read and check every easement before making a journey to check whether any of the easements are actually restrictions, but "them's the rules" as they say. Of course most passengers will just consult NRE which for most journeys gives the correct interpretation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What would be nice is if TCBC or NRE had a facility whereby you entered a start and end destination and it displayed a list of relevant easements, or if it (dis/)allowed a journey that would otherwise be allowed by the RG maps, it told you which easement it used to come to that conclusion.

 

[Firesprite]

With regards to easement 52, I often have traveled to Lower Heyford (One stop south of Kings Sutton) via Banbury from London London Marylebone and never had a problem. I was always led to believe the ticket was valid via either route.

 

[barrykas]

With regards to easement 52, I often have traveled to Lower Heyford (One stop south of Kings Sutton) via Banbury from London London Marylebone and never had a problem. I was always led to believe the ticket was valid via either route.

Heyford and Tackley are both perfectly valid via Banbury, though I'm not entirely sure why!

 

[cjp]

Oxford is south of Kings Sutton (Google map)


[Nice mapping - even if it shows how naff my sense of direction can be