London to Watton at Stone (via Stevenage)

[hp1996]

Hi,

I bought a train ticket today from London Blackfriars to Watton at Stone. The ticket did not specify anywhere the route that I have to take, apart from not travelling on London Underground. I therefore went via Stevenage, but upon arriving and chambering platforms I was told that “I should know it’s not valid via Stevenage” and that “I have tried to get a faster/cheaper route” and was issued with a £100 penalty fare. There was no other priced option upon buying it on Trainline and this route isn’t quicker as it requires me to wait 20 minutes at Stevenage for the 5 minute train to Watton. Please could someone advise if I would likely be successful in my appeal, given that nothing stated that I couldn’t travel through the route I did and it being the same TOC as the route they said I should have travelled? Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Where exactly on the station were you caught? London Blackfriars to Watton at Stone isn’t valid via Stevenage. It’s not a permitted route.

 

[hp1996]

Where exactly on the station were you caught? London Blackfriars to Watton at Stone isn’t valid via Stevenage. It’s not a permitted route.

It was as I was passing through the ticket barriers to cross to platform 5 towards Watton. My ticket didn’t work so I showed them my ticket and was then hit with the news.

My frustration is it said nowhere that I couldn’t go via Stevenage when I brought the ticket and if I had known I would have travelled the route they said as I would still have arrived at the same time.

 

[island]

They don't need to tell you that you can't travel past your destination, it's assumed to be common sense.

You bought (not brought) the ticket and then decided to go by a different itinerary?

 

[30907]

My frustration is it said nowhere that I couldn’t go via Stevenage when I brought the ticket and if I had known I would have travelled the route they said as I would still have arrived at the same time.

As journey planners won't AFAIK offer you the route via Stevenage (even though it is potentially faster), and the single fare to Stevenage is £3 more, I wonder how you decided to go that way.

You could try appealing the PF on the ground that you didn't know the route wasn't allowed and offering to pay the £7.70 difference in fares (but I doubt that will get you anywhere).

The good news is that you will only be £50 out of pocket if you settle promptly.

 

[hp1996]

They don't need to tell you that you can't travel past your destination, it's assumed to be common sense.

I didn’t realise it was past my destination. Unfortunately, trusted Google maps train route.

 

[AlterEgo]

I didn’t realise it was past my destination. Unfortunately, trusted Google maps train route.

But to be fair, Trainline wouldn’t have suggested this itinerary - and for good reason.

I can see how you’ve made this mistake, and think this is a little unfair on you as you were caught certainly changing trains and not trying to exit at Stevenage. But it is what it is I’m afraid.

 

[furlong]

How much exactly is the Penalty Fare? If you upload a copy of it in its entirety (so all the text there is, front and back, with personal details/reference numbers covered up) people can check if there are any obvious errors in it. Signage often doesn't comply with the regulations which may give grounds for appeal and sometimes it's issued for the wrong amount or the text doesn't meet mandatory requirements.

 

[hp1996]

As journey planners won't AFAIK offer you the route via Stevenage (even though it is potentially faster), and the single fare to Stevenage is £3 more, I wonder how you decided to go that way.

You could try appealing the PF on the ground that you didn't know the route wasn't allowed and offering to pay the £7.70 difference in fares (but I doubt that will get you anywhere).

The good news is that you will only be £50 out of pocket if you settle promptly.

Thanks for the advise. Unfortunately, trusted Google maps for the route which is why I went via Stevenage as it offered this as the fastest route with the same TOC. I was charged £70 in the end (assuming that is my train fare on top of the fixed charge) on top of the train fare bought, so feel pretty hard done by here for a very honest mistake.

How much exactly is the Penalty Fare? If you upload a copy of it in its entirety (so all the text there is, front and back, with personal details/reference numbers covered up) people can check if there are any obvious errors in it. Signage often doesn't comply with the regulations which may give grounds for appeal and sometimes it's issued for the wrong amount or the text doesn't meet mandatory requirements.

£68.50 - assuming this is the ticket fare + penalty? After already paying for a ticket (with 26-30 railcard), feel quite hard done by here getting charged for two tickets and a penalty for an honest mistake. Thanks though, I have attached my PF and ticket to show there is nothing clear about route etc on it.

 

[furlong]

I remain confused - this appears incorrect. Precisely where were you when the Penalty Fare was issued? What train had you just got off and where did you board it?

Also please upload the rest of the notice. We need to see all the standard text underneath, as well as what it says about where from and to and the reason etc.

 

[hp1996]

I remain confused - this appears incorrect. Precisely where were you when the Penalty Fare was issued? What train had you just got off and where did you board it?

Also please upload the rest of the notice. We need to see all the standard text underneath, as well as what it says about where from and to and the reason etc.

I was issued the PF at Stevenage and had just exited the train that was ending at Peterborough having got on it at London Blackfriars.

I’ve attached the whole PF now, hopefully this should help.

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s important we know exactly which train you were on - the time it left Blackfriars and arrived Stevenage - as the fare may be incorrectly calculated, and hence a technical defence to the Penalty Fare can be mounted.

They have also marked you as a child on the paperwork…

 

[MrJeeves]

Interestingly, London Thameslink tickets are valid from Elephant & Castle, where travel via Stevenage is permitted as it passes the NFM64 fares check.



How does a group stations ticket like this work where the passenger could technically be starting short at Blackfriars as opposed to Elephant & Castle, and validity differs based on which station in the group you start from?

 

[hp1996]

It’s important we know exactly which train you were on - the time it left Blackfriars and arrived Stevenage - as the fare may be incorrectly calculated, and hence a technical defence to the Penalty Fare can be mounted.

They have also marked you as a child on the paperwork…

It was the 19:07 from Blackfriars which got me to Stevenage at 19:45 and I planned on getting the 20:00 from Stevenage to Watton (c.5 minute train)

 

[BJames]

Trainline wouldn't allow me to input via Stevenage - maybe it's my computer playing up?

However - trainsplit would, and it returned a price of £12.60 (with 26-30 railcard as OP mentions) - with these tickets:




I wonder if this is a mistake. I think it's ok to share this as there really is no tangible benefit in taking this route (around 3 minutes quicker). Seems a little strange though.

 

[Watershed]

There were absolutely no grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare and thus the OP should appeal. We can provide feedback on any draft the OP may wish to share before submitting their appeal.

1) The OP not travel "beyond" their destination as has been suggested (at what point did they pass Watton-at-Stone before reaching Stevenage? Not at all!). It is merely a question of them potentially having travelled via a non-permitted route.

The NRCoT deal with this situation and make clear that the penalty for travelling via a non-permitted route is to have to pay the excess to the cheapest valid walk-up fare(s) that allow the route taken. The NRCoT do not say that a ticket becomes fundamentally invalid under such circumstances and thus a Penalty Fare cannot lawfully be issued since the ticket remains valid subject to payment of the excess.

2) The route the OP took was indeed permitted. Their ticket had an origin of London Thameslink, which includes Elephant & Castle. Elephant & Castle to Watton-at-Stone is permitted via Stevenage. The fact that the OP started their journey at Blackfriars is irrelevant; they were entitled to "start late" at Blackfriars in (unknowing) reliance upon the validity from Elephant & Castle.

3) There may well be arguments about inadequate signage or the details of the Penalty Fare not having been completed correctly - I will leave those as additional arguments for others to raise and explain.

The fact that the fare from some origins to Stevenage is higher is of no relevance at all in this matter and it's clear that the poorly trained RPIs behaved unacceptably in making their false accusations.

The OP may wish to raise a complaint about this separately from their appeal, but sadly I wouldn't expect anything material to come of it since TOCs don't really care about customer service and don't even understand the magnitude of the problem they have.

 

[MrJeeves]

I wonder if this is a mistake. I think it's ok to share this as there really is no tangible benefit in taking this route (around 3 minutes quicker). Seems a little strange though.

No NFM64 fares are defined for Farringdon to Watton-at-Stone, strangely.



I'm not sure what that actually means in reality. A previous thread on the forum basically appeared to leave the effect as undefined, and should in practice be accepted at any of the available routeing point choices, hence including Stevenage and why we'd offer this route on TrainSplit. On the other hand, starting from Blackfriars does not pass the NFM64 fares check as I stated earlier.

I was issued the PF at Stevenage and had just exited the train that was ending at Peterborough having got on it at London Blackfriars.

And the PF says you travelled from City Thameslink, too! Absolutely filled with mistakes...

 

[furlong]

A Penalty Fare that adheres to the regulations cannot authorise travel to Watton-on-Stone when issued at a station after you got off a train, as the one imposed on you purported to do. (This is very basic stuff.)

It's already been pointed out that 'Child' is wrong and of course so is 'City Thameslink' - we can see from the codes that indeed you printed your ticket at Blackfriars. There's a certain irony that GTR is trying to penalise you for missing out the journey between the last two stations when they themselves miss out the journey between the first two!

So I think you can put together a collection of arguments for an appeal, but the fact your ticket was valid anyway is obviously the strongest argument. (Note though that technically the appeals mechanism is only able to cancel the £50 part - if they pursue you for the £18.50 you may need to make legal arguments to try to avoid having to pay it. "Heads they win, tails you lose.")

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage is my local station and there's certainly been lots of revenue activity there recently. They were checking tickets of everyone coming out of the lifts yesterday evening, which is a way of avoiding the barriers.

London Thameslink to Watton at Stone is not intended to be valid via Stevenage. If it was no-one would ever buy a Stevenage to London ticket, they'd simply buy a Watton at Stone to London Thameslink ticket and start short. This is why two tickets are required to travel via Stevenage.

That said @Watershed sets out some reasons for appealing which ought to be successful. The Penalty Fare is based on the price of an Anytime Single from London Thameslink to Stevenage which is £18.50, not a combination of London Thameslink to Stevenage and Stevenage to Watton at Stone.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Of course before Platform 5 was built, if the OP had arrived at Stevenage on a down train, he could likely have boarded a service to Watton At Stone without even passing through a gateline, due to the up Hertford line trains departing from the same island !!

 

[furlong]

Background to the technical error:

5(2A) in respect of England, the information provided by the collector must also include—
...
(b) where the penalty fare authorises a person to travel, the station to which the penalty fare authorises the person to travel.
...

5(7) (7) A penalty fare charged under paragraph (1)—
...
(b) to a person who is leaving a train, authorises that person to leave the train and exit the station,
....

There is no scope for a Penalty Fare issued at a station after leaving a train to authorise further travel. (Why would it need to? If travelling further, just get a new ticket from Stevenage.)
Therefore it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

Alternatively, if it was decided (wrongly) that it did authorise travel to Watton at Stone, then:

“(2A) In paragraph (1A), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to the station that the penalty fare authorises the person to travel to under regulation 5(5A).”.

and as 18.50 is not the full fare between Blackfriars and Watton at Stone via Stevenage (regardless of whether or not you accept the Elephant argument) it was not issued for the correct amount.

 

[Watershed]

A Penalty Fare that adheres to the regulations cannot authorise travel to Watton-on-Stone when issued at a station after you got off a train, as the one imposed on you purported to do. (This is very basic stuff.)

More to the point, as they are (wrongly) claiming that London Thameslink to Watton-at-Stone isn't valid via Stevenage, they are rather defeating their own argument by "regularising" that situation by issuing a Penalty Fare based on the fare from.... err... London Thameslink to Watton-at-Stone

These RPIs clearly have no clue what they're doing as they've been incredibly sloppy with the way they've issued this Penalty Fare, let alone doing so on fundamentally invalid grounds. Sadly the best outcome the OP can hope for is for the Penalty Fare to be cancelled.

 

[hp1996]

There were absolutely no grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare and thus the OP should appeal. We can provide feedback on any draft the OP may wish to share before submitting their appeal.

1) The OP not travel "beyond" their destination as has been suggested (at what point did they pass Watton-at-Stone before reaching Stevenage? Not at all!). It is merely a question of them potentially having travelled via a non-permitted route.

The NRCoT deal with this situation and make clear that the penalty for travelling via a non-permitted route is to have to pay the excess to the cheapest valid walk-up fare(s) that allow the route taken. The NRCoT do not say that a ticket becomes fundamentally invalid under such circumstances and thus a Penalty Fare cannot lawfully be issued since the ticket remains valid subject to payment of the excess.

2) The route the OP took was indeed permitted. Their ticket had an origin of London Thameslink, which includes Elephant & Castle. Elephant & Castle to Watton-at-Stone is permitted via Stevenage. The fact that the OP started their journey at Blackfriars is irrelevant; they were entitled to "start late" at Blackfriars in (unknowing) reliance upon the validity from Elephant & Castle.

3) There may well be arguments about inadequate signage or the details of the Penalty Fare not having been completed correctly - I will leave those as additional arguments for others to raise and explain.

The fact that the fare from some origins to Stevenage is higher is of no relevance at all in this matter and it's clear that the poorly trained RPIs behaved unacceptably in making their false accusations.

The OP may wish to raise a complaint about this separately from their appeal, but sadly I wouldn't expect anything material to come of it since TOCs don't really care about customer service and don't even understand the magnitude of the problem they have.

Thanks everyone - really appreciate your responses and time looking into this for me. I have attached a draft appeal if anyone is able to quickly look through it and make sure I am capturing the key points correctly please?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Where exactly on the station were you caught? London Blackfriars to Watton at Stone isn’t valid via Stevenage. It’s not a permitted route.

Can this journey (Central London -> Watton-on-Stone via Stevenage) therefore only be made with multiple tickets?

 

[lachlan]

I didn’t realise it was past my destination. Unfortunately, trusted Google maps train route.

Google Maps will regularly suggest routes that aren't valid with the most obvious ticket. It's all the more frustrating when these turn out to be quicker than the allowed route. One to watch out for.

 

[MrJeeves]

Can this journey (Central London -> Watton-on-Stone via Stevenage) therefore only be made with multiple tickets?

No, as we've stated many times it's a valid route for London Thameslink to Watton-at-Stone if starting at Elephant & Castle or Farringdon.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

No, as we've stated many times it's a valid route for London Thameslink to Watton-at-Stone if starting at Elephant & Castle or Farringdon.

Sorry, don't follow. Why is starting the journey at London Blackfriars (which is an intermediate station inbetween Elephant & Castle and Farringdon) any different?

 

[MrJeeves]

Sorry, don't follow. Why is starting the journey at London Blackfriars (which is an intermediate station inbetween Elephant & Castle and Farringdon) any different?

It fails the NFM64 fares check whereas the other two stations don't, but you should very much be able to rely on the validity from EPH to start short at the other stations in between.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can this journey (Central London -> Watton-on-Stone via Stevenage) therefore only be made with multiple tickets?

Yes, but from Elephant and Castle, it can be done on one, as @Watershed astutely points out earlier in the thread.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks everyone - really appreciate your responses and time looking into this for me. I have attached a draft appeal if anyone is able to quickly look through it and make sure I am capturing the key points correctly please?

This reads very well. I would make a few changes as below.

Under the first ground of appeal, you might like to explain why you decided to travel via Stevenage - this reinforces your point about not "gaming the system"; in fact you were travelling via an entirely reasonable route since it was the fastest route suggested by a commonly used planning app (Google Maps, I take it?). You should also spell out that the ground of appeal here is effectively a "compelling reasons" one - see Regulation 16(3)(d).

You might prefer to make this your last ground of appeal since it's arguably the weakest one; an appeal on "compelling reasons" is down to the discretion of the Appeals Body, whereas appeals on the basis of non-compliance with the Regulations are ones that must be allowed if the Appeals Body accepts that there was non-compliance.

Under the second ground of appeal, it would be a good idea to spell out the exact part of the Penalty Fares Regulations that each issue with the PFN breaches. In general this is an appeal under Regulation 16(3)(a), since you are arguing that the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with various of the requirements of the Regulation.

For example, as you were at a station, Regulation 5(7) says that a Penalty Fare issued in such circumstances simply authorises you to exit the station; however, the Penalty Fare was issued to Watton-at-Stone even though it did not actually authorise you to travel there.

Similarly, £18.50 is the fare from London Thameslink to Stevenage but the Penalty Fare has been issued to Watton-at-Stone; the fare from London Thameslink to Watton-at-Stone is £15.50. So the amount of the Penalty Fare was incorrect and therefore it was not issued in accordance with the requirements of Regulation 9(2).

Another strong point to raise is that, even if you had been following a non-permitted route by travelling via Stevenage, condition 9.5.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel sets out the only penalty for this - that you must pay the difference to the cheapest valid fare. There is no reference to a Penalty Fare being a possibility in such circumstances, and therefore it's clear that the NRCoT do not consider a ticket used via non-permitted route to be "invalid". The Penalty Fare was issued as your ticket was ostensibly "invalid" but it was in fact valid, with the only question being whether an excess was due under the NRCoT (in this case, it was not).

I think you should also enclose additional evidence of the validity from Elephant & Castle to Watton-at-Stone via Stevenage, for example the above screenshot of the Routeing Point Calculator which shows Stevenage to be an appropriate Routeing Point for such a journey. You could also enclose evidence that an accredited journey planner is willing to offer you the same fare that you bought for travel via Stevenage.

Hopefully this helps - let me know if you'd like any clarification.