London Transport short workings

[frodshamfella]

When I was a kid, my local LT bus was the 122 in Bexleyheath. What I recall were the numerous termination points this route had. Starting at the Terminus Bexleyheath Garage, then Bexleyheath Station, East Wickham, Plumstead Garage, Woolwich, Eltham Green ,Lewisham, Brockley Rise, Forest Hill and the Crystal Palace Terminus . These are the ones that came to mind. How did these intermediate turn round points work, and who decided . Some may have be scheduled, but I think many were ad hoc. Anyone know ?

Thanks

 

[RT4038]

When I was a kid, my local LT bus was the 122 in Bexleyheath. What I recall were the numerous termination points this route had. Starting at the Terminus Bexleyheath Garage, then Bexleyheath Station, East Wickham, Plumstead Garage, Woolwich, Eltham Green ,Lewisham, Brockley Rise, Forest Hill and the Crystal Palace Terminus . These are the ones that came to mind. How did these intermediate turn round points work, and who decided . Some may have be scheduled, but I think many were ad hoc. Anyone know ?

Thanks

In principle, London Transport, like many other bus companies, attempted to match capacity / frequency of service with the levels of likely demand along the route. Many of their routes would have had busy sections around and between the main commercial centres and less busy sections the further into suburbia they got , or where other parallel routes existed. Hence more buses over the busy sections, and the need to turn some of them intermediately to maintain the differential frequencies. Short services (and in the provinces town/city services) tend to have fewer or no examples of short turning points. Of course wherever the Depot is will also usually produce such workings.

Unlike provincial operations, London Transport frequently also turned late running buses short at intermediate points in order to get them back on schedule in an attempt to maintain regularity/capacity of service at key points, and probably more usually, for crew relief to take place at appointed times. This practice, widespread in London, was not so prevalent in the provinces - partly due to traffic congestion being more localised (more opportunity to make up lost time on clearer/quieter sections), but also, inter alia, buses running at wider intervals, passengers travelling long distances/whole route, and less restrictive staff scheduling agreements.

Some years ago TfL took the decision that short workings confused passengers, and that (generally) all buses would be scheduled to run the full length of the route. Goodness knows what that cost in extra buses, mileage and crews. Short turns for schedule adjustment still occur though.

 

[PeterC]

In principle, London Transport, like many other bus companies, attempted to match capacity / frequency of service with the levels of likely demand along the route. Many of their routes would have had busy sections around and between the main commercial centres and less busy sections the further into suburbia they got , or where other parallel routes existed. Hence more buses over the busy sections, and the need to turn some of them intermediately to maintain the differential frequencies. Short services (and in the provinces town/city services) tend to have fewer or no examples of short turning points. Of course wherever the Depot is will also usually produce such workings.

My memory of the 60s in outer London wasn't that the ends of the routes were lightly loaded, rather that buses were filling up near the ends of the routes so the short workings were required as queue busters in the peaks. IIRC an RT only had 56 seats plus 5 standing in the peaks.

After about 6pm you would also get a procession of buses terminating at the garage. There was never a question if running "not in service" where I lived.

 

[2192]

In the 1950's I lived as a child between Kingston & Richmond. Our local bus was the 65 Ealing Argyle Rd - Kingston - Hook - Chessington Zoo - Leatherhead, supplied from Turnham Green (V) garage. Most buses turned round at Chesington Zoo. A few went on to Leatherhood. Occasionally one at Hook, or Kingston. Never any turned at Richmond. (This was before 71's and 65a routes started.) Of course if any turned round at Kingston from the Chessington direction we would not have known about it.

 

[Busaholic]

When I was a kid, my local LT bus was the 122 in Bexleyheath. What I recall were the numerous termination points this route had. Starting at the Terminus Bexleyheath Garage, then Bexleyheath Station, East Wickham, Plumstead Garage, Woolwich, Eltham Green ,Lewisham, Brockley Rise, Forest Hill and the Crystal Palace Terminus . These are the ones that came to mind. How did these intermediate turn round points work, and who decided . Some may have be scheduled, but I think many were ad hoc. Anyone know ?

Thanks

I suspect I'm a few years older than you, and as an Elthamite the 122 was the route that got away i.e. it skirted the Royal town, quite deliberately, as the 186 and tram route 72 had before it (I remember them all, but vaguely in the case of the 72!) Of the termini you mention, all except probably East Wickham were scheduled termini at times, to which I'd add Well Hall Roundabout and Plumstead Station, the former unscheduled, and point out that Eltham Green was expressed as Middle Park Avenue on blinds for many years: the latter scheduled for finish time at Eltham Green School. I believe Sydenham, Kirkdale was also on the blinds but I never saw it displayed: I suspect it was there only for occasions when snow and ice prevented buses reaching Crystal Palace. In answer to your question - the Schedules Department decided, based on the requirements of the Traffic Dept, though the former had latitude to use turning points both to keep crews within their union-agreed working hours in a complicated schedule, like for the 12 route, and to get maximum value from those hours.

 

[Roger1973]

To add to what's already been said, there are some old 122 (and most other LT routes) timetables / allocation details on the 'london bus route histories' website, which may be of interest if you haven't met it.

As others have said, running in overlapping sections was one way of providing more of a service in the busier middle bit of a route - e.g. some buses would do Slade Green - Forest Hill, others would do Bexleyheath - Crystal Palace during Saturday daytimes (it might vary at different times of day / week, and in LT days, many buses at start and end of day would run to/from garage to somewhere in the middle of the route or vice versa (as in early morning / late evening journeys terminating at Lewisham.)

A few routes (from memory, the 12 and 279) ran in 3 overlapping sections at least some of the time, and in the 1970s the 141 was possibly unique on Saturdays in that the two sections didn't touch (Wood Green did Wood Green - Moorgate and new Cross did Grove Park - Elephant with a few early morning journeys to Farringdon Street for print workers coming off night shift.)

Some routes had overlapping sections like I've described on the 122, sometimes it was more complicated, e.g. if a route ran from A to D via B and C, each bus might do a cycle of A to D, D to B, B to C, C to A rather than the more obvious option of having one section doing A to C and the other B to D in each direction.

The reason behind some of this was to make chunks of duty either side of a meal break and / or in the day so that they would fit the legal / LT agreement for duties. An obvious example, but if you have a route where the garage is at one end of the route, and a round trip is about 3 hours, that doesn't really work, as 2 round trips is a bit short for a day's work but too long for a single spell of duty, 3 round trips is probably too much for a day, so you need either remote meal breaks, or a scheduling way of making each chunk of duty a better length.

This was also a factor in many of the routes that different things on Sundays - although some served specific traffic objectives, like the 124A to Bexley Hospital for visitors, some south London services extending to Aldgate for the Sunday markets.

Bits of different routes could be stuck together to make either the vehicle or duty schedule more efficient. The 122A was an example of this in the late 60s, the Woolwich - Erith bit only warranted a 30 minute headway, but the round trip was only just over an hour, so doing it with 3 buses would have been inefficient - hence it was extended via the 122 route to Crystal Palace (until the 122A went OMO anyway.)

 

[frodshamfella]

Thanks very much everyone for the info .

 

[RT4038]

Thanks very much everyone for the info .

If you watch the BTF film 'The Nine Road'

there us quite a good explanation.......

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone like to suggest the shortest scheduled short workings from the days when LT valued these? I remember very frequent peak 'shorts' on the 25 and 38/A between Victoria and Green Park stations prior to the Victoria Line opening, and a.m. peak short workings on the 21 between London Bridge Station and Moorgate, Finsbury Square. Were there 'in service shorts' from Clapton Pond to CT, Walthamstow Garage to Central Station or Crooked Billet, Hackney Garage to Hackney Wick or Catford Garage to Rushey Green, for instance?

 

[RT4038]

Anyone like to suggest the shortest scheduled short workings from the days when LT valued these? I remember very frequent peak 'shorts' on the 25 and 38/A between Victoria and Green Park stations prior to the Victoria Line opening, and a.m. peak short workings on the 21 between London Bridge Station and Moorgate, Finsbury Square. Were there 'in service shorts' from Clapton Pond to CT, Walthamstow Garage to Central Station or Crooked Billet, Hackney Garage to Hackney Wick or Catford Garage to Rushey Green, for instance?

I believe there were from Putney Bridge to Putney Bridge Garage.

 

[Busaholic]

I believe there were from Putney Bridge to Putney Bridge Garage.

That might take the record. There's another rather sneaky one in that, though it was scheduled, in theory it wasn't supposed to carry passengers. It was an early p.m. peak journey on the 159 that, having arrived at Oxford Circus from the Streatham direction to terminate, waited five minutes then proceeded round the corner to the 113 terminal to go on to West Hampstead, this being a way of guaranteeing an empty bus for all the passengers wishing to travel at this time. It was far from usual LT practice and had to be okayed with the TGWU, which only happened when five minutes' stand time got built in. So it was a short from Oxford Circus (BHS west side door) to Oxford Circus (BHS east side door)!

 

[delt1c]

If you watch the BTF film 'The Nine Road'

there us quite a good explanation.......

Worked in Dalston as a conductor at this time and remember Mr Marlow as Garage manager. Interesting using radio to curtail the Mortlake bus as at this time the 9’s were controlled by Roadside inspectors, the 11’s from Dalston and Riverside were Radio controlled ( in theory)

 

[Roger1973]

Anyone like to suggest the shortest scheduled short workings from the days when LT valued these? I remember very frequent peak 'shorts' on the 25 and 38/A between Victoria and Green Park stations prior to the Victoria Line opening, and a.m. peak short workings on the 21 between London Bridge Station and Moorgate, Finsbury Square. Were there 'in service shorts' from Clapton Pond to CT, Walthamstow Garage to Central Station or Crooked Billet, Hackney Garage to Hackney Wick or Catford Garage to Rushey Green, for instance?

I can't think of any scheduled short workings between Catford Garage and Rushey Green, although suppose it's just possible. Although I don't think Rushey Green had an authorised bus stand (certainly after the one-way system started) so would by then only have been a 'turning point' used for unscheduled short turns that were not expected to stand.

47 (after the route was curtailed at Downham Way / Bromley Road) included garage journeys in service between there and Catford Garage which Google Maps makes just under 1 mile.

124 and 160 included garage runs in service Catford Garage - St Dunstans College, just over 1 mile

180 Catford Garage - Lower Sydenham Station, about 1.5 miles

Until 1958, the southern terminus of route 12 was the 'Red Deer' at South Croydon, so there may have been scheduled journeys between there and TC Garage, although the timetables on London Bus Routes show early / late journeys as terminating at the garage.

edit to add - 229 had garage journeys in service between BX Garage and Bexleyheath Market Place, about half a mile

 

[PeterC]

Anyone like to suggest the shortest scheduled short workings from the days when LT valued these? I remember very frequent peak 'shorts' on the 25 and 38/A between Victoria and Green Park stations prior to the Victoria Line opening, and a.m. peak short workings on the 21 between London Bridge Station and Moorgate, Finsbury Square. Were there 'in service shorts' from Clapton Pond to CT, Walthamstow Garage to Central Station or Crooked Billet, Hackney Garage to Hackney Wick or Catford Garage to Rushey Green, for instance?

Another ultra short working was the garage trips from the peak hour queue busters on the 103. In the q966 four times a day, Monday to Friday a bus did the 0.8 miles from Petits Lane to North Street Garage in service.

 

[Busaholic]

I can't think of any scheduled short workings between Catford Garage and Rushey Green, although suppose it's just possible. Although I don't think Rushey Green had an authorised bus stand (certainly after the one-way system started) so would by then only have been a 'turning point' used for unscheduled short turns that were not expected to stand.

47 (after the route was curtailed at Downham Way / Bromley Road) included garage journeys in service between there and Catford Garage which Google Maps makes just under 1 mile.

124 and 160 included garage runs in service Catford Garage - St Dunstans College, just over 1 mile

180 Catford Garage - Lower Sydenham Station, about 1.5 miles

Until 1958, the southern terminus of route 12 was the 'Red Deer' at South Croydon, so there may have been scheduled journeys between there and TC Garage, although the timetables on London Bus Routes show early / late journeys as terminating at the garage.

edit to add - 229 had garage journeys in service between BX Garage and Bexleyheath Market Place, about half a mile

When one 'leg' of the 208 terminated at Rushey Green, and some of the buses were allocated to Catford Garage, there might have been a possibility of short workings, I'm guessing. In days of yore, I'd agree with you that it didn't happen. Got to say, in the eight years I graced St Dunstan's with my presence and used the 160 every day I never saw a working to Catford Garage in service: in practice, buses turned right into Canadian Avenue after Catford Bridge Station to avoid the faff of the one-way system. I only remember garage workings from the Eltham direction.

A footnote to your 180 comments. In January 1970 Catford introduced its first OPO route, the 160, with a new class of bus, the SM. Its Sunday variant the 160A ceased to exist at the same time because Lower Sydenham Station terminus wasn't suitable for SMs , so the 180 was reintroduced on this day with an allocation of one RM from Catford. A half hourly service operated as far as Catford Garage, but only an hourly service on to Rushey Green and, for termination purposes, St Dunstan's College. A 'lazy' blind was also produced for the whole journey, but as every other bus turned at the garage it was rather confusing! It was a stopgap 'solution' which didn't last for long.

 

[Roger1973]

When one 'leg' of the 208 terminated at Rushey Green, and some of the buses were allocated to Catford Garage, there might have been a possibility of short workings, I'm guessing.

I had forgotten about that (think it was at a point in time when I was some distance from S London most of the time) - would garage runs have still been in service at that time, though? (I can't remember when the policy changed)

And from vague memory, they did something a bit complicated to turn / stand at Rushey Green, didn't they? I don't think there was a stand anywhere round the one way system but I may have missed it if it was only there for a short time.

Got to say, in the eight years I graced St Dunstan's with my presence and used the 160 every day I never saw a working to Catford Garage in service: in practice, buses turned right into Canadian Avenue after Catford Bridge Station to avoid the faff of the one-way system. I only remember garage workings from the Eltham direction.

The schedule I found in the 'timetable graveyard' site had a few early morning journeys in service TL - Town Hall - St Dunstan's. I didn't look for journeys in to the garage.

 

[delt1c]

One of the most complex for short workings was the 253. It had terminating points at Mornington Crescent , Nags Head , Finsbury Park, Manor House , Stamford Hill, Clapton Pond , Hackney Central, Hackney Well St , Mile End Gate. All of which were used for scheduled short workings

 

[Busaholic]

I had forgotten about that (think it was at a point in time when I was some distance from S London most of the time) - would garage runs have still been in service at that time, though? (I can't remember when the policy changed)

And from vague memory, they did something a bit complicated to turn / stand at Rushey Green, didn't they? I don't think there was a stand anywhere round the one way system but I may have missed it if it was only there for a short time.



The schedule I found in the 'timetable graveyard' site had a few early morning journeys in service TL - Town Hall - St Dunstan's. I didn't look for journeys in to the garage.

TBH it's so long since I was last in Catford that I've no idea how those 208s terminated.

The early journeys from TL to St Dunstan's make sense, but I wasn't around to see them! The point was to pick up at the Town Hall stop for Welling bound buses. I seem to remember buses on the 75, 124 and 160 sometimes turning right out of Canadian Avenue from TL to achieve that southbound stop, but my memory could be at fault there.

 

[mb88]

And from vague memory, they did something a bit complicated to turn / stand at Rushey Green, didn't they? I don't think there was a stand anywhere round the one way system but I may have missed it if it was only there for a short time.

Did they perhaps turn right at Catford Bridge station up Doggett Road and stand on Thomas Lane as per the current 160, 320 and 336?

 

[Roger1973]

TBH it's so long since I was last in Catford that I've no idea how those 208s terminated.

Did they perhaps turn right at Catford Bridge station up Doggett Road and stand on Thomas Lane as per the current 160, 320 and 336?

I've done more digging on the 'timetables graveyard' site - A 2007 schedule shows northbound Catford terminating buses as serving the 'Rushey Green, Ringstead Road' stop (the one outside what was then Boots - think Marks + Spencer had closed by then) then going to Thomas Lane stand (2 minutes' running time allowed.)

This implies they must have got from Rushey Green to Thomas Lane via some back roads - possibly Wildfell Road, Brookdale Road, Holbeach Road? I have a vague recollection of seeing a 208 in a back road where I really wasn't expecting it (or possibly turning left off Rushey Green), but can't remember exactly where.

And in answer to the original question, there weren't any journeys from TL to that point, as the route was run from TB by then.

 

[mb88]

This implies they must have got from Rushey Green to Thomas Lane via some back roads - possibly Wildfell Road, Brookdale Road, Holbeach Road? I have a vague recollection of seeing a 208 in a back road where I really wasn't expecting it (or possibly turning left off Rushey Green), but can't remember exactly where.

Yes I think you’re right. I was working at Metrobus when the 320 was extended to Catford and I seem to recall the original plan was to send it via the roads you mentioned.

 

[PeterC]

Browsing through my folder of transport ephemera from 1966 I found a curious o e on the 175 in Ongar.

In the afternoon there was 7 minute trip from Cripsey Avenue to the Two Brewers where buses could stand. The bus then reappeared on the timetable at Cripsey Avenue at 16:04. Did the crew really get a 90 minute break in the middle of Essex? Why go one way in service but not the other? They could have covered a trip on the 339 but I had never heard of red buses covering country area routes in the 60s.

 

[stait.john]

Though not scheduled, the Millbank turn on the 507 makes for a short route!

 

[Roger1973]

Browsing through my folder of transport ephemera from 1966 I found a curious o e on the 175 in Ongar.

In the afternoon there was 7 minute trip from Cripsey Avenue to the Two Brewers where buses could stand. The bus then reappeared on the timetable at Cripsey Avenue at 16:04. Did the crew really get a 90 minute break in the middle of Essex? Why go one way in service but not the other? They could have covered a trip on the 339 but I had never heard of red buses covering country area routes in the 60s.

Not my patch, so can't offer firm ideas, but it seems to have been a long standing arrangement - it's there in 1964 and 1969 'red book' timetables as well.

This seems to have been around the need for two buses from Ongar (1604 and 1607) - presume for schools (although there's no equivalent second bus in the morning) - LT central bus division didn't seem to do school day / holiday timetables (let alone schedules) in those days.

I am fairly sure that a red bus would not have done a journey on a green bus route, and would have thought if it had been a regular 'strange working' then it would have been known about and photographed.

In the 1961 red book, the bus just has a layover at the Ongar terminus from 1408 to 1605

From a scheduling point of view, I'm not sure it would have saved a lot of time - and would have cost some mileage - for the 1408 arrival to work back in service and for a later journey to be extended through to Ongar from Stapleford Abbotts. There are times when something that appears 'inefficient' in either mileage or crew time can be balanced by a saving on the other.

Quite where the bus went, and whether it would have counted as a meal break for the crew, I wouldn't like to say. Generally speaking, the agreement was that meal breaks had to be somewhere with an LT canteen (there were some canteens remote from garages) or travel time back to garage allowed. The 175 crew might have been able to get a cup of tea and somewhere to sit at Ongar Station, but don't think it would have counted as a canteen.

 

[Dai Corner]

Quite where the bus went, and whether it would have counted as a meal break for the crew, I wouldn't like to say. Generally speaking, the agreement was that meal breaks had to be somewhere with an LT canteen (there were some canteens remote from garages) or travel time back to garage allowed. The 175 crew might have been able to get a cup of tea and somewhere to sit at Ongar Station, but don't think it would have counted as a canteen.

It might not have been an official canteen but the Two Brewers pub sounds like an agreeable place to park up and spend one's break and there may even have been an arrangement with the landlord to provide food and (non-alcoholic) drink?

 

[miklcct]

How many London Buses routes still have official short workings nowadays?

 

[Busaholic]

Not my patch, so can't offer firm ideas, but it seems to have been a long standing arrangement - it's there in 1964 and 1969 'red book' timetables as well.

This seems to have been around the need for two buses from Ongar (1604 and 1607) - presume for schools (although there's no equivalent second bus in the morning) - LT central bus division didn't seem to do school day / holiday timetables (let alone schedules) in those days.

I am fairly sure that a red bus would not have done a journey on a green bus route, and would have thought if it had been a regular 'strange working' then it would have been known about and photographed.

In the 1961 red book, the bus just has a layover at the Ongar terminus from 1408 to 1605

From a scheduling point of view, I'm not sure it would have saved a lot of time - and would have cost some mileage - for the 1408 arrival to work back in service and for a later journey to be extended through to Ongar from Stapleford Abbotts. There are times when something that appears 'inefficient' in either mileage or crew time can be balanced by a saving on the other.

Quite where the bus went, and whether it would have counted as a meal break for the crew, I wouldn't like to say. Generally speaking, the agreement was that meal breaks had to be somewhere with an LT canteen (there were some canteens remote from garages) or travel time back to garage allowed. The 175 crew might have been able to get a cup of tea and somewhere to sit at Ongar Station, but don't think it would have counted as a canteen.

I wonder whether that schedule operated even earlier than 1964, as Epping Garage closed in 1963 and prior to that a dead run to EP for a canteen break would have been feasible.

On the subject of LT canteens, from my brief time in the Schedules Dept of LT there were specific locations where public cafe facilities were deemed acceptable for meal reliefs, mostly of long standing. One such was a cafe (name long forgotten by me) in East Street, close to the Bromley North Station terminus. Bromley Garage crews took their breaks there during the daytime Mondays to Fridays and up to 1 p.m. on Saturdays (the cafe closed at 2 p.m. on that day until Monday morning.) I believe Godstone crews on Country route 410 also made use of this arrangement. There were special rates for bus staff.

I repeat that no red bus would ever have been scheduled on a green route after the end of World War Two. I'm not talking about the colour of the bus, but the status of the crews working for the two entirely separate divisions of the bus operating department, respectively housed at 55 Broadway and Bell Street, Reigate. There would have been immediate strike action if it were ever proposed.

 

[philthetube]

There are loads of short workings around Brent cross, everything turns short after the shopping centre closes.

 

[Mike99]

I was very lucky to be a Conductor and Driver out of Elmers End Garage (ED) in the mid to late 1970's and therefore on the subject of short workings, out of service positioning journeys and meal reliefs away from the 'home' garage Elmers End had a instance of all of these. Meal Reliefs for around half a dozen duties on a Monday to Friday and maybe a couple more on Saturdays were taken at Peckham Garage and not at Elmers End. Regarding Short Workings, not the shortest in the system as has been quoted above, but there were several short working trips from Harlesden 'Willesden Junction' to Park Royal 'Trading Estate' in the morning and evening peak times. Our duty number 1 went from Elmers End Garage to Harlesden, 2 shorts and then a return to Elmers End Garage (Norwood Junction at one time). After one schedule change duty 3 went from ED to Harlesden returning to Shepherds Bush Green and then to Park Royal 'Trading Estate' although not unusual in itself it was for an ED duty. Furthermore on one particular schedule change we had two Saturday duties that terminated at Oxford Circus from the west (the duty being from Peckham to East Acton - Oxford Circus-Shepherds Bush Green and then return to Elmers End Garage. Finally an afternoon peak duty had the unusual and quite rare task of running from Norwood Junction to Oxford Circus then light to Piccadilly Circus (to pick up at the stop at the bottom of Regent Street outside the Café Royal, to provide an empty bus from that stop and return to ED.

 

[PeterC]

It might not have been an official canteen but the Two Brewers pub sounds like an agreeable place to park up and spend one's break and there may even have been an arrangement with the landlord to provide food and (non-alcoholic) drink?

It's a longish uphill walk from the Two Brewers terminus to Ongar Station but I am sure that there were several locations, as well as licensed premises, where refreshments could be obtained.

The 175 workings in the 60s were quite complex with no buses making the full end to end run.