London Underground D78 stock (District line): upcoming withdrawal and future use

[bwhughes]

I have been searching in the past few minutes for threads and posts on this forum as to the future of London Underground's District line fleet of 75 6-car D78 stock trains.

They were introduced from early 1980 with the final deliveries being in 1983. The oldest units will be 35 years old or imminent with the youngest 31 years old. This makes them the same age as some of the the British Rail (BR)-built electric multiple units (EMUs) Classes 317 (1981-82) and 455 (1982-85).

The D78s are due to be replaced by brand new S7 stock from this year (2014) or next year, when the replacement of the C69 and C77 stock (Circle, Hammersmith & City, Edgware Road branch of District lines) is complete.


At the current time I do not know what London Underground (LU) plans to do with the first units that will be retired from LU service. They are a decade younger than the C69s and two decades younger than the withdrawn A60 and A62 stock on the Metropolitan line. It would seem a major waste to scrap them when there is huge demand for extra carriages across Britain.

The BR Class 455s that are used by South West Trains (SWT) on commuter routes from London Waterloo are to have their Direct Current (DC) motors replaced by more efficient Alternating Current (AC) motors.

Do forum members think that the same should be done with D78 stock so that the most use can be got out of them for another 15 years? (Not on the Underground). The same thing was done to the late 1970s and early 1980s-built trains of the Prague Metro (Czech Republic). The D78s would probably be able to travel faster than 50mph without detriment.

It would take the fitting of Automatic Warning System (AWS) and Train Protection Warning System (TPWS) to allow the D78 stock to operate on the national rail system.
The fourth-rail shoes could be bonded to the wheels so that current flows into the running rails so that the D78s could use third-rail routes in London and Merseyside (Liverpool and surrounds).

 

[David Goddard]

Cardiff Valleys might be more appropriate than routes in the London area, not much point anywhere else (ie Mersey) as everything else is newer.

 

[edwin_m]

Use in Cardiff Valleys would require a 25kV pantograph and transformer to be added, which would be a major undertaking and unlikely to pay back given the limited remaining life of the stock. The 315s are only a bit older than D78s and already equipped for 25kV so these (or perhaps 317s or 319s) are a more likely choice if the Valleys is to get second-hand stock.

 

[transmanche]

At the current time I do not know what London Underground (LU) plans to do with the first units that will be retired from LU service.

Coke cans I expect.

Horrible trains, they (along with their 1983 stock cousins) are the worst stock ever to run on LU.

 

[Darren R]

I thought Harrogate Chamber of Commerce had bagsied them?

Seriously though, as transmanche says, the great scrapyard in the sky is the most likely option, apart from one for preservation maybe.

 

[Uzair]

As much as I'd like to see them kept in service in the UK, I'm 95% sure they will go to the great scrapyard in the sky. It's not economical to convert them for use on the Harrogate line.

transmarche - What LU stock is your favourite then?

 

[transmanche]

transmarche - What LU stock is your favourite then?

Of the current stock, I actually really like the Victoria line's 2009 stock. Good acceleration, good use of tip-up seats, nice wide doors and a PIS that isn't too loud. Oh and for some reason, the sound they make when pulling into a station is quite comforting!

Second to that would be the 1973 stock on the Piccadilly.

 

[Nym]

I can see a few being converted into Motive Power Units for the Rail Adhsion Trains, since they have the newer type of protection and braking systems fitted, ATP is a lot easyer to fit than it is to A Stock.

The double enders could see further use, either in passenger service or providing 'shorter' services elsewhere on LU, with new route opertinities being gained by things like the Croxley Rail Link, and additional stock being required on other lines, the D Stock might have a fair bit of life left in it yet.

Explanation of 'other places'

Watford Junction - (Croxley Rail Link) - Rickmansworth / Ammersham
Chalfont & Latimer - Chesham Shuttle (Provided track is not removed)
Rayners Lane / Uxbridge - Acton Town Shuttle (6tph District may not be enough to cover it)
Woodford - Hainault via Grange Hill (ATP Fittment Required, and movment by road to get there.)
Harrow & Weldstone / Watford Junction to Queens Park additional services (rather than 1972 Mk.III units, yes passengers would need to change at Queens Park, would need to be post croxley and tripcocks & 4th rail to Watford High St as these would need to run out of Neasden / Ealing Common due to lack of depot capacity at Stonebridge Park)

Motive power units for engineering trains in place of battery / tunnel locomotive units.

As they're essentially free stock and cheap to maintain (common spares with 1973TS) I can see a fair bit of life in them yet if the outer reaches of the network start being cared about by TfL.

 

[Uzair]

I definitely agree that the trains still have life in them. I'm very sad to see them go, but there is still a while before they do.

Would they be able to cope with the Cardiff Valleys?

 

[Nym]

Would they be able to cope with the Cardiff Valleys?

Fifty shades of no...

(OK, maybe not fifty, but a fair few)

1. They're DC Stock
2. They run with a floating earth
3. There's nowhere to fit a transformer.
4. RPAs are quite hard to look after, and need a lot of experienced maintenance.
5. Seating layout is all wrong.
6. They're too slow
7. Not fitted with AWS
8. Not fitted with TPWS
9. Not fittable with ETCS / ERTMS

 

[jopsuk]

Nowhere is going to get a new 3rd rail network, and the only situation in which there will be more 4th rail is extensions to existing LU lines (eg Met to Watford).

For all the reasons listed, especially by Nym, these units really are not suitable for service anywhere else. The cutters torch awaits them all. This might seem wasteful, but it is in fact far more efficient than any scenario that would see them used.

 

[Nym]

Well, not all...

It's nearly a dead cert that a few will see further 'departmental' use.

And hopefully after lessons learned from the C Stock scrapping spares harvesting will happen before they go to Rotherham, not as an afterthought...

 

[bwhughes]

Nowhere is going to get a 3rd rail network, and the only situation in which there will be more 4th rail is extensions to existing LU lines (eg Met to Watford).

For all the reasons listed, especially by Nym, these units really are not suitable for service anywhere else. The cutters torch awaits them all. This might seem wasteful, but it is in fact far more efficient than any scenario that would see them used.

I agree about the impediment to their use in the valleys (Cardiff) and that there won't be another new 3rd rail network.

I had thought that Merseyrail would be the most obvious choice; the New Brighton and West Kirby branches of the Wirral line (green) were what I had in mind. This would free up class 507/508s (same age) to increase the length of more peak time trains to 6 cars.

 

[jopsuk]

Merseyrail are looking to retire and replace their fleet with new build stock.

 

[philjo]

Isle of Wight?

Or use them on Olympia shuttles as seems a waste to put new S7s on that service.

 

[Domh245]

Isle of Wight?

Or use them on Olympia shuttles as seems a waste to put new S7s on that service.

The main reason that the Isle of Wight uses tube stock is because of the Ryde Tunnel, and if you were to convert the tunnel to accept D78 stock, you might as well go the whole hog and clear it for mainline stock (507/8s ?). The olympia shuttle sounds good at first, but then you must take account of the fact that it would be taking up paths through Earls Court, and whether using a unique passenger fleet (in terms of training drivers for it) as well as taking up those valuable paths through Earls court is worth it. Granted it will be resignalled at some point in the next couple of decades, but at that point the D78s will be old, and possibly difficult to convert to ATO

 

[Tetchytyke]

Horrible trains, they (along with their 1983 stock cousins) are the worst stock ever to run on LU.

I never understood the hate for the D stock or the 83 stock. The single leaf doors weren't ideal, sure, but they weren't the bellyache so many people claimed they were.

I like the D stock, especially after refurbishment, and it does seem a waste to see them go. But I can see the economics of replacing them now and having one sub-surface train type.

I never understood why the 83 stock didn't make it to the Isle of Wight.

As for the Olympia shuttle, they've been trying to get rid of it for years and they've almost managed.

 

[Chris125]

Isle of Wight?

Vehicle length may pose a problem at the sharply curved Ryde Esplanade station, and there'd be the cost of dropping the track and/or raising the platform at every station along with any modifications needed to overbridges and the depot - impossible to justify when more tube stock should become available in due course.

Despite common misconception the tunnel may not be a major issue, D78 stock is a similar height and less than a metre longer than the ex-Merseyrail 503's once proposed as replacements for the Standard Stock and though a bit tight in places an unmodified 03 shunter successfully traversed it.

I never understood why the 83 stock didn't make it to the Isle of Wight.

The current 38 stock may be older but IIRC was purchased in excellent condition and had only been on the Island 8 or 9 years by the time these were retired - there's really no obvious reason for such a change, certainly not for rolling stock with a poor reputation, and no money available anyway.

Chris

 

[Nym]

That and the 83TS had bogies that just loved to crack, hence not even seeing much departmental use...

 

[bwhughes]

Even if merseyrail is replacing its fleet in 5-8 years, I have so far heard nothing about replacement of Southern Class 455s in south London.

If the D stock were adapted for 3rd rail/AWS/TPWS, the D stock could take over Victoria - West Croydon/Epsom/Epsom Downs and other routes that end well within the M25. The '455's could be redeployed to outer suburban routes (subject to fitment of controlled emission toilets), expanding Southern's fleet or allowing '377's to be sent to work AC-electrified routes.

 

[transmanche]

If the D stock were adapted for 3rd rail/AWS/TPWS, the D stock could take over Victoria - West Croydon/Epsom/Epsom Downs and other routes that end well within the M25. The '455's could be redeployed to outer suburban routes (subject to fitment of controlled emission toilets), expanding Southern's fleet or allowing '377's to be sent to work AC-electrified routes.

Or (and this is far more likely), they will be converted into Coke cans.

 

[W-on-Sea]

They're too big for the Isle of Wight - you need tube, not sub-surface, stock to fit through the tunnel at Ryde.

 

[jopsuk]

Do read the other posts, it has already been mentioned that this is a misconception.

But the reality is that all these schemes to reuse them are far too complex. Their fate has already been decided.

 

[glbotu]

I remember hearing a proposal about them moving to run Saltburn - Bishop Auckland services. Was this just something that fell out of this forum or was it ever a real, serious suggestion? If so, what were the issues?

 

[ainsworth74]

I have no idea where you heard that! Are you sure you're not getting confused with the Harrogate proposals? Either way that has most certainly never been a proposal serious or otherwise.

As for problems it would have many of the same as Harrogate, indeed even worse as there would be no way of getting the units from the Bishop - Saltburn line to their depot at Heaton in Newcastle without either dragging them or installing third rail all the way to Newcastle! Further there's the interaction between DC third rail and AC OHLE at Darlington which would cause problems. Then there's the issue with the D Stock, in my opinion, being a downgrade on the 142/156s that currently run the service and are even older!

Basically no, not now or indeed ever!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Further there's the interaction between DC third rail and AC OHLE at Darlington which would cause problems

That shouldn't be too problematic, they manage to work together at Hunts Cross.

That said, the D78s are going to be turned into soup cans, there's nothing else for it. The costs of adapting them would far outweigh the benefit in adapting them. If you were going to go to the trouble of installing gangways and safety equipment you may as well just pop down to your local Bombardier dealer and buy a new train.

 

[ainsworth74]

That shouldn't be too problematic, they manage to work together at Hunts Cross.

It isn't impossible but it requires a special set up to allow it (read: additional cost). Also I should have pointed out it would just be Darlington it would be all the way to Newcastle (to allow access to Heaton) which is a long way, expensive, way on the ECML or not so bad via the Durham Coast but then you'll still need to deal with Newcastle station at the other end.

Alternatively you need to build a new depot...

 

[SF-02]

I know it is not going to happen but it wouldn't be bad to see them on the Southeastern Sittingbourne to Sheerness shuttles on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent which used to be run by 508s. This would free up networkers to strengthen the 465/466 services into London on metro routes. Way too many are 4/6/8/10 currently when they need to be longer.

 

[cav1975]

There is a national shortage of DMUs at the moment - so put generator sets into the end cars and run them anywhere!

 

[user15681]

I know it is not going to happen but it wouldn't be bad to see them on the Southeastern Sittingbourne to Sheerness shuttles on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent which used to be run by 508s. This would free up networkers to strengthen the 465/466 services into London on metro routes. Way too many are 4/6/8/10 currently when they need to be longer.

In the unlikely event that happened, it would free up a grand total of... two 466s. Hardly the biggest fleet strengthening.