West Lothian buses

[Volvodart]

The 2018 accounts are not due to be filed until September, but they usually announce/file them in June. Why did you quote 2016 when their profits were a lot less in 2017?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

So there's a 1 years delay in filing there reports.

Delving into the companies finances let's you really see that lothian only has liabilities of 19.2m over its operation.

Yet First Scotland East has liabilities of 17.2m, and that's just considering there Livingston operations? Wow

Its really coming to light how lothian have got such an operation going.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So there's a 1 years delay in filing there reports.

Delving into the companies finances let's you really see that lothian only has liabilities of 19.2m over its operation.

Yet First Scotland East has liabilities of 17.2m, and that's just considering there Livingston operations? Wow

Its really coming to light how lothian have got such an operation going.

Lothian total liabilities - £44.2m
FSE total liabilities - £7.7m

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Lothian total liabilities - £44.2m
FSE total liabilities - £7.7m

Lothians last details closing 2017

 

[ainsworth74]

Knock it off with having jabs at each other. Discuss whatever you like about bus operations but the Forum Rules are clear that we require members to treat each other with respect.

I've tidied this thread up a bit and any further such posts will be deleted.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lothian total liabilities - £44.2m
FSE total liabilities - £7.7m

Current liability relates to bills due within the year. Total liabilities relate to full indebtedness such as leases, pension liabilities etc.

Differences in current and total may exist because of differing accounting policies in a large group vs a standalone business.

 

[Driver362]

Longer routes can be made reliable, just a case of having generous running time. If i was a planner i'd probably give a few minutes layover at Livingston and the Airport just to allow catch up if the bus got held up slightly.

So why is it always discredited as we've been there tried that it won't work its poor value etc etc when Lothian try it I'm thinking new x17 . But when fir still do it , it's longer routes can work ? The issue with running time as has been noted can be a nightmare on A8 at peak times its not un common to lose 30 mins at peak , . But if some one got on this proposed 600 extension at whitburn they could be on the bus a long time before it gets near the airport !!! Then in normal time more running time means eventually you need more drivers more buses etc all having negative impact on profits. And in all honesty what I've seen pax wise that's going to hurt financially !! .and the cou de gras is its going to take on the 100 . Now that I want to see !

 

[herb21]

Current liability relates to bills due within the year. Total liabilities relate to full indebtedness such as leases, pension liabilities etc.

Differences in current and total may exist because of differing accounting policies in a large group vs a standalone business.

Not to turn a discussion about buses into one on accounting, but in both cases (current and non-current) looking at the liabilty position without considering what assets balance it is pretty pointless. But I very much agree FSE and lothians accounts and company structure are so different that very few meaningful conclusions can be drawn from looking at them as comparitors. If consolidated accounts were produced at an FSE level that would be be more useful, but as a large group unless you have sight of the management structure legal entity accounts are close to meaningless.

 

[DunsBus]

Yes, I recall the 23 as well. Didn't think the 86 matched an existing LRT number or single route. Wasn't it like half of the 3 and half of the 26? Or was the limited stop LRT 86 still running between Eastfield and Clermiston at that time? First ran a 129 from Silverknowes to Princes St, then out to Seton Sands, but again not an identical route or number copy.

First did indeed copy the 23, but it had also been the subject of a bus war between LRT and Eastern/SMT a number of years earlier. That one lasted quite a bit longer than the First move of 2001-02.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Lothian Buses is much harder to sell off now that the Tram exists. The business case for the tram depends on it being an integrated part of the Edinburgh local transport network. The councils couldn't allow Lothian to be sold off without a large degree of control being retained in order to keep the tram operating sensibly. As a result, it'd end up more like a concession model as you see in London with different companies operating services under central control by TfL.

 

[overthewater]

First are complete an utter muppets with some of the changes coming, 600 should go no where near whitburn, What First should be doing it it want to waste money yet try its luck:

* 600 Every 30mins Livingston - Airport - Edinburgh CC
* 500 Every 30mins Harthill - Whitburn - livingston - M8 - Airport - Edinburgh CC
* 500/600 would be every 15min to CC with cheaper fare because it does not terminate at the airport 24/25/500/600 would provide 7/8min service from Maybury. Maybe have special £1 fare?
* kill off the 22.
* dups waiting at the bus stance to operate infront of the 280 and 287.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

First are complete an utter muppets with some of the changes coming, 600 should go no where near whitburn, What First should be doing it it want to waste money yet try its luck:

* 600 Every 30mins Livingston - Airport - Edinburgh CC
* 500 Every 30mins Harthill - Whitburn - livingston - M8 - Airport - Edinburgh CC
* 500/600 would be every 15min to CC with cheaper fare because it does not terminate at the airport 24/25/500/600 would provide 7/8min service from Maybury. Maybe have special £1 fare?
* kill off the 22.
* dups waiting at the bus stance to operate infront of the 280 and 287.

Now now! Don’t steal my thunder!

I’d invite First with open arms into the city centre again only to watch them fail and run from the CC like they did near 20 years ago.

Unlike many ever think about, “Loyalty” is key for Lothian in the city and the people of edinburgh will maintain that, they have done time & time again, A perfect example of this has also been seen with there Motor Coaches venture taking business off of other private hire firms around Eddy, of course coupled with there friendlier prices.

LB’s 100 runs every 10 minutes at least to the CC from the airport, most will still get the 100 to be fair not to mention the whole ecosystem lothian have through use of the trams and other extensive airport bus services, i.e the 200, 300 and 400 adding to this.

A quick question though, while WL might not be the profit centre to operate a bus out of I assume lothian will also take into account those using the likes of lothian country services within edinburgh itself?!

 

[overthewater]

If there really is Loyalty then why then do many on the Queensferry road still like using Stagecoach and have so for donkey years?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

If there really is Loyalty then why then do many on the Queensferry road still like using Stagecoach and have so for donkey years?

Discussed this before, lothian have operated the 41 along there for years and thats it while stagecoach operate the quicker limited-stop services into the city centre yet usually mirror the fares lothian charge into edinburgh, of course the coaches used at stagey provide that extra comfort, don’t forget thats another forebear that doesn't go by unnoticed, if stagey started sending its usual run of the mill buses from the fife mainland on these services things wouldn't be as successful.

Stagecoach on Queensferry Rd when it operated the 43 is a worthy comparison to the way in which Lothian now operates the 43, sure it isn't as frequent anymore but still carrying worthy loads at peak and handfuls throughout the day coupled with Lothians lower fares from Queensferry itself.

 

[overthewater]

When it operated deckers/E300 or better still even "PS" passengers still used them. I know there used to throw out deckers because it got them more passengers. There have been busy with local passengers for years, i'm unsure why your never noticed this point.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not to turn a discussion about buses into one on accounting, but in both cases (current and non-current) looking at the liabilty position without considering what assets balance it is pretty pointless. But I very much agree FSE and lothians accounts and company structure are so different that very few meaningful conclusions can be drawn from looking at them as comparitors. If consolidated accounts were produced at an FSE level that would be be more useful, but as a large group unless you have sight of the management structure legal entity accounts are close to meaningless.

Very true and well explained. I was illustrating you can pick whatever figures you want but it can be difficult to compare like with like.

 

[Jordan Adam]

So why is it always discredited as we've been there tried that it won't work its poor value etc etc when Lothian try it I'm thinking new x17 . But when fir still do it , it's longer routes can work ? The issue with running time as has been noted can be a nightmare on A8 at peak times its not un common to lose 30 mins at peak , . But if some one got on this proposed 600 extension at whitburn they could be on the bus a long time before it gets near the airport !!! Then in normal time more running time means eventually you need more drivers more buses etc all having negative impact on profits. And in all honesty what I've seen pax wise that's going to hurt financially !! .and the cou de gras is its going to take on the 100 . Now that I want to see !

I need to stop you right there... You're simply making up stuff i have never said!

I have never said there would be any issues with the timing on the X17 or it being unreliable because of the routing. All i've said about the X17 is i don't see the point in it as it covers areas that already have direct train links to Edinburgh, i then as an alternative suggested it would be better to have it go via Blackburn and Whitburn instead of West Calder and Loganlea. This is a simple suggestion rather than a criticism.

I stick by my previous comments regarding the 600, however i do agree that for Airport users it is a little on the slow side. Livingston to the Airport isn't too bad when you take in to account that it provides links to Winchburgh and Kirkliston. Your argument about more drivers and having negative effect on profit is really just stating the obvious, if this extension to the 600 is to go ahead then it would be a increase of only two buses, compare that to the new X17 which will require 8 vehicles. However again this argument is pointless as it's just stating the obvious and each operator will clearly be away of this! In all honesty the 600 would be better going to Ocean Terminal rather than trying to compete with the 100.

Please actually make sure what you're claiming i have said is actually true before posting.

 

[Siemens Trains]

If there really is Loyalty then why then do many on the Queensferry road still like using Stagecoach and have so for donkey years?

Discussed this before, lothian have operated the 41 along there for years and thats it while stagecoach operate the quicker limited-stop services into the city centre yet usually mirror the fares lothian charge into edinburgh, of course the coaches used at stagey provide that extra comfort, don’t forget thats another forebear that doesn't go by unnoticed, if stagey started sending its usual run of the mill buses from the fife mainland on these services things wouldn't be as successful.

Stagecoach on Queensferry Rd when it operated the 43 is a worthy comparison to the way in which Lothian now operates the 43, sure it isn't as frequent anymore but still carrying worthy loads at peak and handfuls throughout the day coupled with Lothians lower fares from Queensferry itself.

It's really just the limited stop aspect that attracts these passengers. Nobody travelling within Edinburgh would complain if Stagecoach disappeared - contrast that with what might happen if Lothian suggested withdrawing the 41.
Strictly speaking, Stagecoach never operated a 43 - it was a combination of the 40, 40A and 40B. Having experienced these, and the 43 run by First, I wouldn't like to see the clock turned back (definitely not to the Stagecoach days). On balance Lothian Country's 43 provides the best overall service we've had in Queensferry, and that's with no direct competition. I wouldn't say I was a particular "fan" of Lothian but they do build loyalty very well.

 

[Driver362]

Having worked / working for both I see things from a more balanced view point , I apologies if you felt it personal (*it wasnt) just a fairer reporting of state of play is what I'm looking for . The point the 600 doesn't look busy is what I see then again there are lots I don't see .maybe someone could tell us how it's doing ? .the point made about Lothian pax using LC is we get a few on x18 for the Corstorphine area presumably for the limited stop and cheaper than the 100 ? But at the end of the day they know it's still a "Lothian bus" as most are ridacard users .

 

[Jordan Adam]

Having worked / working for both I see things from a more balanced view point , I apologies if you felt it personal (*it wasnt) just a fairer reporting of state of play is what I'm looking for.

It wasn't that i "felt it personal", it was just the fact you were making a claim i had said something that i hadn't and that whether you intended to or not was implying i was being hypocritical for saying that thing i hadn't said. I think there needs to be clear understanding between being overly critical / hating an operator and simply pointing out potential issues.

Anyway, a few issues i have with routes from both operators....

X17 (Lothian): the main issue is that it doesn't offer anything really new, it's unimaginative and just another route duplicating existing services. Why would anyone want to spend 2 hours on a bus/coach when the same journey can be done by rail in under half that time, i suspect the main market for the X17 will be between Fauldhouse and Livingston and then between Livingston and Edinburgh, however again this is links that are already extensively covered.

X18 (Lothian): Arguably Lothian's best idea so far, the routing is good and it offers a fast link from Bathgate to Edinburgh, while this is a route already covered by the train Bathgate is big enough to support both options (unlike Fauldhouse/West Calder), the route then services Armadale, most of which is not in walking distance of the rail station. Before continuing on to Whitburn, which doesn't have any other links in to Edinburgh. The proposed use of high floor vehicles does run the risk of killing off the parent/child and OAP markets however.

21/22 & 25 (First): I see no point on the 25 going in to Edinburgh, it would be much better if all 25s terminated at Livingston and the 22 went in to Edinburgh instead.

X27/X28 (Lothian): These routes would be better terminating at Deans allowing the 280 to increase in frequency instead. For Bathgate passengers the X27/X28 are far too slow.

600 (First): Too slow for Airport passengers going from Livingston, and if it does get extended to Whitburn and Edinburgh City Centre it will probably win the award of most useless route in Edinburgh. I can't see why anyone would want to have a tour of West Lothian and Edinburgh Airport, i'd suspect by the time you got in to Edinburgh you'd have missed the last bus home! There probably is demand for the 600, but certainly not in it's current form or frequency.

 

[overthewater]

600 is busier as its the fastest bus to broxburn and is the main bus to Winchburgh, and really could do with having a 30min freq. I agree about having all 25 not serving Edinburgh, along with most of the other comments. If X18 was really the best idea it would have stayed in Wester Inch and then after serveing Bathgate operate down the all 20 route to direct to Whitburn, missing out Armadale.

People still use the stagecoach service when it was all stops because it never wasted time going around Davids mains. Also not all people in the ferry are happy with the 43.

 

[Jordan Adam]

600 is busier as its the fastest bus to broxburn and is the main bus to Winchburgh, and really could do with having a 30min freq. I agree about having all 25 not serving Edinburgh, along with most of the other comments. If X18 was really the best idea it would have stayed in Wester Inch and then after serveing Bathgate operate down the all 20 route to direct to Whitburn, missing out Armadale.

People still use the stagecoach service when it was all stops because it never wasted time going around Davids mains. Also not all people in the ferry are happy with the 43.

Perhaps it would be better to have the 600 go direct between Broxburn and Ratho Station and then reintroduce a service from Livingston to Queensferry/Gyle Centre via Winchburgh. The X18 probably serves Armadale because it's quite a sizeable town/village. Perhaps me saying the X18 has been their best idea summarises the quality of their ideas thus far...

If i'm not mistaken the current 43 doesn't go round Davidson's Mains, it's just the 21 and 41 that do.

 

[goldisgood]

Perhaps it would be better to have the 600 go direct between Broxburn and Ratho Station and then reintroduce a service from Livingston to Queensferry/Gyle Centre via Winchburgh. The X18 probably serves Armadale because it's quite a sizeable town/village. Perhaps me saying the X18 has been their best idea summarises the quality of their ideas thus far...

If i'm not mistaken the current 43 doesn't go round Davidson's Mains, it's just the 21 and 41 that do.

I think the OP is referring to Stagecoach's 40/40A compared to the Lothian 41, when the Stagecoach buses went all stops direct along Queensferry Road and the 41 went all stops via Davidson's Mains.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Right it’s 3 weeks until the new X17 launch’s and LCB haven’t officially published the timetable for it despite it being on the bus times website! with btw no Sunday service and plenty of part route journeys to Livingston in the evening! Just be interesting to know what fare zone Fauldhouse lies within!

Also the former Skylink 573-5 etc that have been transferred to Livi now have stop announcements installed for West Lothian Journeys! used one on the X28 out to Livingston the other day and was surreal to hear the stop names along the countryside

 

[Jordan Adam]

Also the former Skylink 573-5 etc that have been transferred to Livi now have stop announcements installed for West Lothian Journeys! used one on the X28 out to Livingston the other day and was surreal to hear the stop names along the countryside

That's gotta be irritating on such a long run! Good to see some form of investment in the fleet though. The B5LH's will be good for the rural runs.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

That's gotta be irritating on such a long run! Good to see some form of investment in the fleet though. The B5LH's will be good for the rural runs.

It maybe but it's fantastic for the visually impaired passangers. If it irritates other passangers, they can put earphones in and listen to something else.

 

[Bbbus32]

I think you may have confused the dividends Lothian pay out to the council with the "funding" lothian receive from the council.

Per the 2017 financials total dividends paid by lothian to its shareholders (ultimately the 4 councils) were £6.8m (2016: £6.6m). Total related party (the 4 councils and their subsidiaries) income (all sales of goods and services - probably largely tenders) was £2.7m (2016: £2.7m). Total related party expenses (all purchases of goods or services - probably largely rates) were £1.7m (2016: £1.5m). Related party payables and receivables are all pretty low, so this doesn't look like disguised funding. There are no capital contributions in either year so that isn't a source of funding.

Finding this thread very interesting of late, Jordan Adam I haven’t seen a reply to this to see if this was what you were referring to? Surely CEC could not be funding a bus company with millions of pounds? My understanding is exactly what herb21 has stated that this is divedends paid to the Council from CEC? A pretty good income from the looks of it??

 

[overthewater]

Right it’s 3 weeks until the new X17 launch’s and LCB haven’t officially published the timetable for it despite it being on the bus times website! with btw no Sunday service and plenty of part route journeys to Livingston in the evening! Just be interesting to know what fare zone Fauldhouse lies within!

Also the former Skylink 573-5 etc that have been transferred to Livi now have stop announcements installed for West Lothian Journeys! used one on the X28 out to Livingston the other day and was surreal to hear the stop names along the countryside

There is no demand? X17 isn't the best idea that has come out of the managers head, 281 isnt doing much better either. I see Road Closure in Knightsbridge, which will delay X27/X28 and 281, and first 26.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Finding this thread very interesting of late, Jordan Adam I haven’t seen a reply to this to see if this was what you were referring to? Surely CEC could not be funding a bus company with millions of pounds? My understanding is exactly what herb21 has stated that this is divedends paid to the Council from CEC? A pretty good income from the looks of it??

Source was inaccurate, hence the deletion of my original comment and the lack of subsequent reply (partially because i had forgot to). Seems odd that you'd randomly join the forum and then have your first post as such. Are you a dupe by any chance...

 

[In Focus]

There is no demand? X17 isn't the best idea that has come out of the managers head, 281 isnt doing much better either. I see Road Closure in Knightsbridge, which will delay X27/X28 and 281, and first 26.

Are Lothian even serving Knightsridge during this road closure?
The diversion into the scheme at Cameron Way is to say the least tight ,First are planning to use most if not all the Darts they have on it during these roadworks.
281 and now X17 are there to simply take revenue away from First and Blue Bus on the A71 corridor.