Loughton to Worthing Central seaside excursion ?

[alex397]

I am currently looking through my late great uncle’s collection of The Railway Magazine, and in the February 1958 edition, in the picture section is an image with the following caption:

“Train of Eastern Region stock from Loughton to Worthing Central, via Liverpool Street, passing Lancing on September 15 [presumably 1957] headed by Southern Region U1 class 2-6-0 locomotive No. 31899”.

This came as a bit of a surprise as I was not aware of such seaside excursions running along the LU Central Line. This section of the Central Line was transferred from British Railways in 1948, although I am aware that some very early morning DMU services ran well into LU days.

Did this really happen? And if so, was this something that occurred every year at the time?

 

[mike57]

This section of the Central Line was transferred from British Railways in 1948

Epping - Ongar was still steam hauled until the end of 1957, using BR stock.

 

[Magdalia]

Yes. The Liverpool Street Division of the Eastern Region ran an extensive programme of seaside excursions on summer Sundays. There would be one, sometimes two, each Sunday with south coast destinations. Brighton was the most popular but some would go to Eastbourne, Worthing, Littlehampton or Bognor Regis, and a few went to Ramsgate. Starting points were also spread around the Liverpool Street Division and included Loughton, which would get an excursion train every two or three weeks.

One of my research holy grails is to find pictures of the Loughton trains on the Central Line, especially in the diesel era. My research suggests that the excursion trains from Loughton ran until 1964.

 

[Snow1964]

Did these run to Liverpool Street, then reverse via Shoreditch and Wapping. I am sure multiple railway companies had running powers from about 130 years ago which continued until at least 1950s

 

[Magdalia]

Did these run to Liverpool Street, then reverse via Shoreditch and Wapping. I am sure multiple railway companies had running powers from about 130 years ago which continued until at least 1950s

Yes.

 

[Taunton]

Did these run to Liverpool Street, then reverse via Shoreditch and Wapping. I am sure multiple railway companies had running powers from about 130 years ago which continued until at least 1950s

I recall a photo in a magazine about 1958 of such a train on the East London line, though I can't remember if it was a seaside excursion or an enthusiasts' special. Double-headed J69 0-6-0T locos, which likely went no further than New Cross Gate. There were also still freight services by the same route and locos, which apparently also reversed in Liverpool Street station platforms.

Running powers had gone with nationalisation, now all the same company.

 

[AlbertBeale]

So what exactly would the route have been from Loughton to Worthing??

 

[Magdalia]

So what exactly would the route have been from Loughton to Worthing??

Loughton to Liverpool Street via Stratford, using the connection through Leyton Yard.
Reverse at Liverpool Street then to New Cross Gate via the East London Line.
New Cross Gate to Worthing via the Brighton Main Line, could be Quarry Line or Redhill.

I recall a photo in a magazine about 1958 of such a train on the East London line, though I can't remember if it was a seaside excursion or an enthusiasts' special. Double-headed J69 0-6-0T locos, which likely went no further than New Cross Gate.

In steam days there would be loco changes at Liverpool Street and New Cross Gate. Not long after diesels arrived on the Great Eastern they started to work through from Liverpool Street to the South Coast.

Running powers had gone with nationalisation, now all the same company.

This is superficially correct, but the history mattered and lots of ways of operating carried on as before.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Loughton to Liverpool Street via Stratford, using the connection through Leyton Yard.
Reverse at Liverpool Street then to New Cross Gate via the East London Line.
New Cross Gate to Worthing via the Brighton Main Line, could be Quarry Line or Redhill.

In steam days there would be loco changes at Liverpool Street and New Cross Gate. Not long after diesels arrived on the Great Eastern they started to work through from Liverpool Street to the South Coast.

This is superficially correct, but the history mattered and lots of ways of operating carried on as before.

Ah - I hadn't realised there were links from Liverpool Street to the East London Line; I though they were at different levels.

 

[Magdalia]

Ah - I hadn't realised there were links from Liverpool Street to the East London Line; I though they were at different levels.

Yes. In days gone by the old LT East London Line station at Shoreditch was visible from trains going in and out of Liverpool Street on the Main and Electric lines (but not the Suburban lines). But it isn't so obvious now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Ah - I hadn't realised there were links from Liverpool Street to the East London Line; I though they were at different levels.

When did the link (from the main line out of Liverpool Street station on to the East London line) go? Late 1960's?

 

[Magdalia]

When did the link (from the main line out of Liverpool Street station on to the East London line) go? Late 1960's?

It was out of use by the start of the April 1966 timetable but I don't know if the end coincided with the end of the 1965/66 timetable. I think the last booked workings were parcels trains between Liverpool Street and New Cross Gate.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Ah - I hadn't realised there were links from Liverpool Street to the East London Line; I though they were at different levels.

There are some good photos showing the lay of the land on the Disused Stations website.

 

[Gloster]

It was out of use by the start of the April 1966 timetable but I don't know if the end coincided with the end of the 1965/66 timetable. I think the last booked workings were parcels trains between Liverpool Street and New Cross Gate.

According to the 4th edition of Brown’s London Rail Atlas the junction between the GER and ELR (Wheeler Street or Bishopsgate Junction) was severed on 17-04-1966.

 

[David Burrows]

These excursions were always hauled by J15's from Stratford. J15's were, I believe, the only tender engines which could run down the central line, being trip-cock fitted. A tender engine was necessary as there was no water available at Loughton. The trains consisted of 6 coaches, the maximum (with engine), which could be accomodated in the centre road at Loughton. These excursions to and from Liverpool St may well have been the last J15 hauled passenger services. After steam left Stratford the trains from Loughton were hauled by type 1 diesels, either the NB 84xx's all 10 of which were tripcock fitted, or BTH 82xx's of which some at Stratford were so fitted.
As far as I know, none were ever hauled by Brush type 2s (class 31), although some of these at Stratford were tripcock fitted and occasionally appeared on the daytime freight and shunting trip from Temple Mills.
The trains ran to various locations in Kent (Margate/Ramsgate) and Sussex (Eastbourne/Brighton/Worthing) all running from Liverpool St via the East London Line and either New Cross (for Kent destinations) or New Cross Gate (for Sussex). Occasionally one did run from Loughton to Clacton, presumably reversing and re-enginning in the Stratford/Channelsea Jn area.
These excursions normally caused a 'proper' Stratford engine such as 65361 or 65452 to appear, which were not usually seen in daylight on that line, rather that those regularly out-shedded at Epping such as 65444, 65446, 65464 and 65476, one of these would appear at Loughton from Epping every Monday to Saturday afternoon to shunt Loughton yard. 65464 was, incidentally outshopped from Stratford Works in 1957, spotless with red rods and was kept in this condition until Epping shed closed in November 1957 with the electrification of Epping-Ongar, the engine then went back to live at Stratford and became as unkempt as the rest.

 

[Magdalia]

These excursions were always hauled by J15's from Stratford. J15's were, I believe, the only tender engines which could run down the central line, being trip-cock fitted. A tender engine was necessary as there was no water available at Loughton. The trains consisted of 6 coaches, the maximum (with engine), which could be accomodated in the centre road at Loughton. These excursions to and from Liverpool St may well have been the last J15 hauled passenger services. After steam left Stratford the trains from Loughton were hauled by type 1 diesels, either the NB 84xx's all 10 of which were tripcock fitted, or BTH 82xx's of which some at Stratford were so fitted.
As far as I know, none were ever hauled by Brush type 2s (class 31), although some of these at Stratford were tripcock fitted and occasionally appeared on the daytime freight and shunting trip from Temple Mills.
The trains ran to various locations in Kent (Margate/Ramsgate) and Sussex (Eastbourne/Brighton/Worthing) all running from Liverpool St via the East London Line and either New Cross (for Kent destinations) or New Cross Gate (for Sussex). Occasionally one did run from Loughton to Clacton, presumably reversing and re-enginning in the Stratford/Channelsea Jn area.
These excursions normally caused a 'proper' Stratford engine such as 65361 or 65452 to appear, which were not usually seen in daylight on that line, rather that those regularly out-shedded at Epping such as 65444, 65446, 65464 and 65476, one of these would appear at Loughton from Epping every Monday to Saturday afternoon to shunt Loughton yard. 65464 was, incidentally outshopped from Stratford Works in 1957, spotless with red rods and was kept in this condition until Epping shed closed in November 1957 with the electrification of Epping-Ongar, the engine then went back to live at Stratford and became as unkempt as the rest.

Thanks very much for this. If you have any details with dates, locos and destinations then I'd be interested!

Once the diesels took over 7 car trains were allowed at Loughton, though ex LNER stock was usually specified.

I do know of one instance of a Brush Type 2 out of Loughton, but I suspect this only happened when the Loughton starter was the first of two trains over the East London Line. The Brush Type 2 coming in from Loughton could then work the second train forward from Liverpool Street.

From 1961 to 1964 most of the known workings of these trains are Brush Type 2 hauled between Liverpool Street and the South Coast, though there are lots of gaps still to be filled!

65464 was one of the last J15s in traffic, withdrawn at the end of steam in Anglia in September 1962.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There are some good photos showing the lay of the land on the Disused Stations website.

Thanks!

 

[alex397]

Many thanks for the extra information here, it’s fascinating to read.

 

[Taunton]

Presumably the J69 locos used on the East London segment also had tripcocks for the Underground signalling. They also had I understand condensing gear.

Did the diesel multiple units used in the 1960s on the very early morning services to Epping, before the Underground trains started running, have tripcocks as well?

 

[30907]

Presumably the J69 locos used on the East London segment also had tripcocks for the Underground signalling. They also had I understand condensing gear.

Did the diesel multiple units used in the 1960s on the very early morning services to Epping, before the Underground trains started running, have tripcocks as well?

Some J15s certainly did, as did some DLs, so I would imagine the same applied but I can't quickly find confirmation.

Google found me this re J15s
https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/8707/steam-buckhurst-hill

Incidentally, J15s were still working passenger to N Woolwich at Easter 1962 - my uncle took me for a day out to Stratford, N.W., Palace Gates (and then to Hadley Wood), and memory says we saw a J15 but didn't manage to travel behind it.

 

[David Burrows]

Presumably the J69 locos used on the East London segment also had tripcocks for the Underground signalling. They also had I understand condensing gear.

Did the diesel multiple units used in the 1960s on the very early morning services to Epping, before the Underground trains started running, have tripcocks as well?

I presume that the J69s had to be tripcock fitted. The D82xx & D84xx diesels which hauled the night time parcel trains over the East London Line had to be tripcock fitted, as were presumably the class 31s if they worked the excursion train via that route.
The DMU's which formed the early morning services were never tripcock fitted but the cabs had to be double manned, a safegurd against the driver failing to stop at a signal.

 

[Taunton]

Thank you. A few questions of excruciating detail ( (: ) come from this:

- Did tripcocks just work with air brakes? Was there an advantage that the old GER steam locos were air braked from old times?

- Did the dmus on the early morning Epping services run on a variant of a "possession", that is they were accepted without tripcocks as long as the Underground stock had not begun running yet?

- Who determined what Underground lines did, or did not, require tripcock locos? The section from Harrow to Amersham ran jointly with whatever unfitted main line locos came down from Sheffield. But the East London line, same type of Underground stock, needed them.

 

[John Webb]

Presumably the J69 locos used on the East London segment also had tripcocks for the Underground signalling. They also had I understand condensing gear.....

Yes, they did. 68619, one of the J69s, was in later years one of the station pilots at Liverpool Street station and was immaculately adorned in GE livery. In 1960/61 three of us at school not far from New Cross Gate station would take our sandwiches to the station and have our lunchbreak away from the school premises. Imagine our amazement when one lunchtime when 68619 turned up on the East London line with half a dozen vans in tow - what a shame we had no cameras to hand!

 

[David Burrows]

- Did the dmus on the early morning Epping services run on a variant of a "possession", that is they were accepted without tripcocks as long as the Underground stock had not begun running yet?

The DMUs, or at least the later trips on a Sunday morning, ran at the same time as normal underground trains were starting to run. When travelling on the Sunday morning trips from Liverpool St to Loughton (where they latterly terminated) one would pass the early underground services heading towards London, the ECS off these two two trips, while returning to Stratford depot would be running amongst the underground trains.

 

[DerekC]

Ah - I hadn't realised there were links from Liverpool Street to the East London Line; I though they were at different levels.

I found the following photo in the October 1958 edition of "Trains Illustrated". (Sorry it's a bit grainy - the original is only 100 x 60mm)

"Class B17"4-6-0 No 61670 City of London eases the 10.35 am Yarmouth (South Town) - Liverpool Street past East London Junction on June 14, 1958. In the right background an LT electric train turns round at Shoreditch station." [R. E. Vincent]

 

[Gloster]

The photo appears to be taken from the old Bishopsgate Low Level platform.

 

[DerekC]

The photo appears to be taken from the old Bishopsgate Low Level platform.

I think that's right. I recall getting tantalising glimpses of the junction and Underground trains beyond it from down Lea Valley suburban trains as they passed through the arches under Bishopsgate goods station. I was fascinated (at the age of 10 or so) by the connections between the various lines into London.

The "Trains Illustrated" article about operations out of Liverpool Street, from which the above photo (post #25) is taken, has a paragraph about East London Line workings, as follows. It mentions excursion trains generally, but not the Central Line ones specifically:

"The East London line connection joins the electric lines at East London Junction, just beyond the Bishopsgate bridge. From Shoreditch the line is worked by London Transport, but the E.R. works trains through to New Cross Gate, a distance of 4 ½ miles where connection is made with the Southern Region. As most of the journey is in tunnel and LTE signalling is installed, the “J69” 0-6-0 tanks which are the only engines permitted have to be fitted with condensers and trip cocks. A regular parcels train leaves Liverpool Street for New Cross Gate at 12:47 PM and returns at 2.05 PM, reaching the terminus at 2:24 PM; it starts and arrives in one of the centre lines between platforms 9 and 10 and very often consists only of a single van. Other trains conveying transfers of fish or parcels are scheduled to run if required. In recent years more frequent use has been made of this Cross-London connection for special passenger trains. During the summer excursions from E.R. suburban stations run to Brighton, Hastings and Worthing via the East London line, but reversal is, of course, necessary in one of the platforms at Liverpool Street. Some of these specials have originated on the G.N. section, reaching Liverpool Street by the Palace Gates spur. Usually two “J69s” are used on the passenger trains because of the gradients."

 

[John Webb]

I think that's right. I recall getting tantalising glimpses of the junction and Underground trains beyond it from down Lea Valley suburban trains as they passed through the arches under Bishopsgate goods station. I was fascinated (at the age of 10 or so) by the connections between the various lines into London.

The "Trains Illustrated" article about operations out of Liverpool Street, from which the above photo (post #25) is taken, has a paragraph about East London Line workings, as follows. It mentions excursion trains generally, but not the Central Line ones specifically:

......As most of the journey is in tunnel and LTE signalling is installed, the “J69” 0-6-0 tanks which are the only engines permitted have to be fitted with condensers and trip cocks. A regular parcels train leaves Liverpool Street for New Cross Gate at 12:47 PM and returns at 2.05 PM, reaching the terminus at 2:24 PM.....

That ties in very well with what my two friends and I saw one lunchtime at New Cross Gate, as mentioned in my post above (#23) - an interesting bit of information 60+ years after the event!

 

[DerekC]

Here's a picture from "Trains Illustrated" special edition on the GER, undated but I would think from about 1975. The caption speaks for itself:

"Class N7 no 69630 revives memories of steam working on the Epping line before it was taken over by London Transport Central Line as it leaves South Woodford with a Loughton-Clacton excursion on July 7, 1959. ..." [Philip J Kelley]

 

[David Burrows]

Interesting, I was not aware that N7s ran down the line following LT taking over the line. Obviously from the photo they did, or at least this one did! I wonder if this was one of those which had once been based at Finsbury Park and was tripcock fitted for trips to High Barnet etc and had subsequently transferred to Stratford. I doubt whether an N7 would have been used for these trains with any regularity due to a lack of any facilities for it to take water at Loughton. The trip with the ECS from the Stratford area to Loughton, run-round, sit at Loughton for around 30 minutes and then work to Liverpool St, with what were quite heavy trains, before water became available after the train left Liverpool St after reversing would probably be somewhat optimistic and not allow for any delays which might have occured en route. Those which I saw at Loughton in the latter steam days were all J15 hauled.