Loughton to Worthing Central seaside excursion ?

[Gloster]

BR Database and Walmsley both give it as a Stratford loco throughout the BR era.

 

[DerekC]

Interesting, I was not aware that N7s ran down the line following LT taking over the line. Obviously from the photo they did, or at least this one did! I wonder if this was one of those which had once been based at Finsbury Park and was tripcock fitted for trips to High Barnet etc and had subsequently transferred to Stratford. I doubt whether an N7 would have been used for these trains with any regularity due to a lack of any facilities for it to take water at Loughton. The trip with the ECS from the Stratford area to Loughton, run-round, sit at Loughton for around 30 minutes and then work to Liverpool St, with what were quite heavy trains, before water became available after the train left Liverpool St after reversing would probably be somewhat optimistic and not allow for any delays which might have occured en route. Those which I saw at Loughton in the latter steam days were all J15 hauled.

It occurs to me that since this excursion was heading for Clacton, it could have reversed (with a change of motive power to something with bigger wheels and a tender) at Stratford. As @David Burrows suggests, the ECS would probably be parked overnight in the Stratford area. So maybe 69630 only had to get the train the ten miles or so from Stratford to Loughton and back. There might have been water at Stratford station as well.

 

[David Burrows]

Quite right, for some reason I wasn't thinking about reversing at Stratford. It would probably, as I know from an experience on an excursion for our school from Loughton to Norwich in the early 1960s have run to Channelsea Jn, where the loco to work to Norwich via Ipswich was attached (D84xx to Channelsea Jn and class 31 Channelse Jn to Norwich and return and similar on return). In the case shown in the photo it was presumably deemed to have sufficient water for the return trip from Stratford area to Loughton and back, but I think it would be unusual to chance such a round trip in case there were delays, there was no water available between Stratford and Epping in those days. If N7s, presumably trip-cock fitted, were involved in the night-time staff workings from Stratford to Epping (which trains I often heard, living at Loughton, but never saw) they would have taken water at Epping.
Although N7s were capable of doing round trips from Liverpool St to Chingford or Enfield, there was always water available at each end of the journey.

 

[DerekC]

Quite right, for some reason I wasn't thinking about reversing at Stratford. It would probably, as I know from an experience on an excursion for our school from Loughton to Norwich in the early 1960s have run to Channelsea Jn, where the loco to work to Norwich via Ipswich was attached (D84xx to Channelsea Jn and class 31 Channelse Jn to Norwich and return and similar on return). In the case shown in the photo it was presumably deemed to have sufficient water for the return trip from Stratford area to Loughton and back, but I think it would be unusual to chance such a round trip in case there were delays, there was no water available between Stratford and Epping in those days. If N7s, presumably trip-cock fitted, were involved in the night-time staff workings from Stratford to Epping (which trains I often heard, living at Loughton, but never saw) they would have taken water at Epping.
Although N7s were capable of doing round trips from Liverpool St to Chingford or Enfield, there was always water available at each end of the journey.

OK - I hadn't looked at the Stratford layout carefully enough - so a change of locomotive at Channelsea Junction, but no reversal necessary to get to Clacton (or Norwich). Could the ECS move have been timed to allow the N7 to run to Epping and back for water, before departure of the service?

Getting a bit OT, schools excursions seem to have been quite a thing in that area in the late 50s/early 60s. I recall two, from my school in Cheshunt. One of old loco-hauled stock with an N7 at the head to Windsor & Eton Riverside, via the now-defunct north to west curve at Tottenham Hale, the T&H and the NLL. The next year we had a brand spanking new DMU - I regret to say I don't know what sort - I wasn't much interested in diesels - to North Walsham for a trip on the Broads. What I wish I could remember is whether the N7 hauled the first one throughout.

 

[Magdalia]

It would probably, as I know from an experience on an excursion for our school from Loughton to Norwich in the early 1960s have run to Channelsea Jn, where the loco to work to Norwich via Ipswich was attached (D84xx to Channelsea Jn and class 31 Channelse Jn to Norwich and return and similar on return).

I am interested in any more details on this! The only working that I have from my research that fits with the description is actually on 08/05/59 when there was an 0936 Buckhurst Hill to Wroxham, which was the usual destination for trips on the Norfolk Broads, but could plausibly also have involved visiting Norwich. I agree that Channelsea Junction is a plausible location for a loco change: that happened with excursions coming off the North London Line and heading to Southend or Clacton.

Getting a bit OT, schools excursions seem to have been quite a thing in that area in the late 50s/early 60s. I recall two, from my school in Cheshunt. One of old loco-hauled stock with an N7 at the head to Windsor & Eton Riverside, via the now-defunct north to west curve at Tottenham Hale, the T&H and the NLL. The next year we had a brand spanking new DMU - I regret to say I don't know what sort - I wasn't much interested in diesels - to North Walsham for a trip on the Broads. What I wish I could remember is whether the N7 hauled the first one throughout.

Educational excursions were a big thing in the late 1950s and early 1960s especially during summer term May-July, but the only other example I know off from Loughton is 07/06/63 to Windsor and Eton Central. Windsor was a popular destination but sources are not always clear whether trains are going to Central or Riverside. I have a Brimsdown-Windsor on 16/07/59, which would fit with steam traction and using the north to west curve at Tottenham, but that would not have called at Cheshunt.

Unfortunately my research doesn't usually extend to trains shown to be DMUs.

 

[David Burrows]

OK - I hadn't looked at the Stratford layout carefully enough - so a change of locomotive at Channelsea Junction, but no reversal necessary to get to Clacton (or Norwich). Could the ECS move have been timed to allow the N7 to run to Epping and back for water, before departure of the service?

I suggest Derek C looks in more detail at the at layout at what was originally known as Loughton Branch Jn, which from 1958 became Temple MillsEast Jn box. It might appear on a small scale map that trains could avoid reversing at Channelsea Jn but the layout at no time enabled trains from Leyton to run via High Meads Jn to Channelsea Jn and then to Stratford station and the GE main line. The only route from the Leyton line was direct towards Stratford station, thus trains requiring to go to Clacton etc on the GE mainline HAD to reverse, which they did at Channelse Jn, the layout there enabling trains to reverse and engines to be attached to what had been the rear of the train. Excursions from Enfield, Chingford etc to such as Clacton had no need to reverse as they came via South Tottenham from Enfield or Hall Farm curve from Chingford and could thus run via High Meads to Channelse and Stratford.
There are track plans of Loughton Branch Jn and latterly Temple Mills East boxes available free on the internet, clearly showing the layout there.

 

[DerekC]

I suggest Derek C looks in more detail at the at layout at what was originally known as Loughton Branch Jn, which from 1958 became Temple MillsEast Jn box. It might appear on a small scale map that trains could avoid reversing at Channelsea Jn but the layout at no time enabled trains from Leyton to run via High Meads Jn to Channelsea Jn and then to Stratford station and the GE main line. The only route from the Leyton line was direct towards Stratford station, thus trains requiring to go to Clacton etc on the GE mainline HAD to reverse, which they did at Channelse Jn, the layout there enabling trains to reverse and engines to be attached to what had been the rear of the train. Excursions from Enfield, Chingford etc to such as Clacton had no need to reverse as they came via South Tottenham from Enfield or Hall Farm curve from Chingford and could thus run via High Meads to Channelse and Stratford.
There are track plans of Loughton Branch Jn and latterly Temple Mills East boxes available free on the internet, clearly showing the layout there.

Yes, I see what you mean. Reversal at Channelsea Junction for our Loughton - Clacton excursion, then.

Educational excursions were a big thing in the late 1950s and early 1960s especially during summer term May-July, but the only other example I know off from Loughton is 07/06/63 to Windsor and Eton Central. Windsor was a popular destination but sources are not always clear whether trains are going to Central or Riverside. I have a Brimsdown-Windsor on 16/07/59, which would fit with steam traction and using the north to west curve at Tottenham, but that would not have called at Cheshunt.

My trip would have been a bit earlier than that - in 1957, I think.

 

[Crisso]

In the very late 1950’s, as a young child, I was taken on a Steam hauled excursion from Highams Park to Clacton on Sea. Can recollect the Loco was a B1 or similar looking 4-6-0 tender Loco and, the routing was direct, using the then connection from the Chingford Branch to Lea Bridge and on to Stratford finally, joining the GEML for the rest of the journey.
I was subsequently taken in the very early 1960’s on excursions also from Highams Park to Eastbourne and Brighton. These were diesel hauled (Class 24?) with open saloon Gresley excursion stock. The routing was reversing at Liverpool Street then, via the East London Line to New Cross Gate and onwards on the SR.

 

[Magdalia]

In the very late 1950’s, as a young child, I was taken on a Steam hauled excursion from Highams Park to Clacton on Sea. Can recollect the Loco was a B1 or similar looking 4-6-0 tender Loco and, the routing was direct, using the then connection from the Chingford Branch to Lea Bridge and on to Stratford finally, joining the GEML for the rest of the journey.

Chingford to Clacton ran via this route on Bank Holidays and some summer Sundays too. Enfield Town to Clacton would also run reaching Channelsea from Seven Sisters via the curves at Tottenham. This lasted until Easter 1962: from Whitsun 1962 EMUs were used, reversing at Liverpool Street.

I was subsequently taken in the very early 1960’s on excursions also from Highams Park to Eastbourne and Brighton. These were diesel hauled (Class 24?) with open saloon Gresley excursion stock. The routing was reversing at Liverpool Street then, via the East London Line to New Cross Gate and onwards on the SR.

Chingford-Brighton was probably the most common starting point/destination combination for the summer Sunday trains via the East London Line. BR Type 2s would not have worked via the East London Line as they only got tripcocks after they had moved to Finsbury Park in 1961. From 1961 to 1964 likely traction from Liverpool Street to Brighton or Eastbourne would be a tripcock fitted Brush Type 2. The only summer where BR Type 2s were active in the Stratford area was 1960, it is possible that a BR Type 2 worked Chingford-Liverpool Street in 1960, they are known to have worked Chingford-Southends at Whitsun 1960.

The excursions via the East London Line were usually specified for ex LNER stock I presume there must have been a loading gauge issue for MarkIs.