Low end EVs

[Noddy]

Thanks for the map.

I suspect that Paris having more chargers than the whole of the UK, if true, might have been very very early on. And how many in each contry are fast chargers of course.

There are 3493 ultra fast (>100KW) chargers in the UK according to Zap Map. These are the ones that are normally faster than the car itself can handle. I can’t easily find the number for France but as @jon0844 has pointed out Metropolitan France is over twice the size of the UK so it’s going to need a lot more of these chargers to allow folk to travel quickly between its towns and cities.

 

[GardenRail]

I think people who haven't got an EV think range is a problem. Those who have bought one soon realise it isn't an issue. Most also appreciate potentially waking up every day with a 'full tank'.

Also, most EVs keep quite a big reserve and lie to you a little, so that when you hit '0' you can still drive, sometimes at a limited speed.

Just like a petrol car often has quite some range left when the warning has given up estimating a range. Indeed, I think I did a good 20 or more miles in my diesel when there was the fuel shortage/panic and I had to drive all over the place.

When they do at least 300 miles range, in the real world, for around £30,000, I'll be interested. Until then, I'd sooner keep petrol. Example, just drove from Pontefract to Gatwick, at 3am, in one go, and even got back on the same tank. Don't want to stop twice going down, to re-charge (and buy a costa that I don't want), especially at that time. Nor would I want my first thought to be, upon landing, at 4am, having to charge to get a third of the way home. That's my real world example. Also, there's not enough charging infrastructure, and I have nowhere to install a charger at home, my drive is away from the house, and a cable would have to cross a neighbours drive. Its hard to convince me when my Ford Puma will do 350 miles on a full tank, for around £55 that would take aprox 5 minutes to fill.

 

[jon0844]

This is a thread about smaller, cheaper, EVs. Plenty of cars with bigger ranges and if you bought used, I expect £30k would get you a massive choice.

 

[GardenRail]

This is a thread about smaller, cheaper, EVs. Plenty of cars with bigger ranges and if you bought used, I expect £30k would get you a massive choice.

I don't want second hand. Why would I when you can get brand new petrol, full warrenty, and not have to worry about a battery life span. Even a small petrol car will far out run a small EV in range.

 

[MotCO]

Deleted

 

[jon0844]

I don't want second hand. Why would I when you can get brand new petrol, full warrenty, and not have to worry about a battery life span. Even a small petrol car will far out run a small EV in range.

I've only ever bought a car new once, and later a leased car. I bought the car, a 2.5ltr turbo that did about 200-220 miles per tank (petrol) because I wanted it a specific way. I would never, ever, buy new otherwise.

Now that the options lists are almost obsolete, with cars sold with specific packages instead, it's even more logical to buy nearly-new, or an ex-demo IMO.

 

[Bald Rick]

and not have to worry about a battery life span

You don’t have to worry about battery life span with an EV. Read up about the subject.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I don't want second hand.

The vast vast majority of cars sold in the UK are second hand, so clearly most people don't share your viewpoint.

 

[GardenRail]

The vast vast majority of cars sold in the UK are second hand, so clearly most people don't share your viewpoint.

That's all very well. I don't expect everyone, let alone anyone, to share my views. It is my view, and my view only. Your reply, adds nothing to this conversation.

 

[jon0844]

Self entitled much?

 

[GardenRail]

Self entitled much?

Why? It's irrelevant. Some buy new, some second hand. I am writing from my perspective. Please stop trying to shame me in my opinion. It's a conversation. Different view point. Different angle. We don't have to agree, and we certainly don't have to start throwing around personal insults. Self entitled.....? If you knew me, you'd know that couldn't be further from the truth. But, you don't know me.

Another Real World Example. The Girlfriend has a Mini. It will do 340 miles at least, on a full tank. She commutes 4 days per week from Pontefract to York. Approximately 65 to 70 miles per day depending on route taken. She only has to worry about filling up once, before the start of her work week. Her option going forward with Mini in the world of EV is currently 145 miles range, if optimum conditions. She would need to charge the thing every day, to confidently get to work and back the next day. I don't know how much 4 charges would cost against the equivalent in fuel. How can going from 340 to 145 miles be considered a forward step? The only way that could ever be considered is if the EV price came down, a lot. Chinese models are needed to kick others in to touch.

So, for context, that's keeping the thread more on topic. An EV made by Mini. Relevant in both context of this thread, and manufacturer.

I do however concede, that EVs would be very good for low mileage drivers, but then surely the cost of an EV has to be made against just how low a milage driver one is.

For people to accept EV fully, there has to be a breakthrough in the cost of them. Less mileage, less convenient, especially for impulsive days out over 60 miles.

Slightly off topic, but these conversations always remind me of stopping off at Watford Gap Service for a pee. Out of the, 4 I think, 1 charger was working with a queue of 7 EVs waiting for it. That's a backward move whichever way you look at it.

 

[MotCO]

I do however concede, that EVs would be very good for low mileage drivers, but then surely the cost of and EV has to be made against just how low a milage driver one is.

That is a good point. Since an EV costs more than an ICE equivalent, you need to do a lot of miles before you reach the cross-over point (where it is financially more worthwhile to buy an EV), but an EV may only be used for shorter journeys for range issues, so you may not reach that cross-over point.

 

[WelshBluebird]

That's all very well. I don't expect everyone, let alone anyone, to share my views. It is my view, and my view only. Your reply, adds nothing to this conversation.

I mean given we are talking about the wider topic as a whole, and not just you, it very much does add to this conversation. The vast majority of people don't have the same hang ups around used cars so if we are talking about EV adoption and specifically around EV's needing to be lower priced, then the fact that used cars make up most of the sale of cars in the UK is very relevant.

Another Real World Example. The Girlfriend has a Mini. It will do 340 miles at least, on a full tank. She commutes 4 days per week from Pontefract to York. Approximately 65 to 70 miles per day depending on route taken. She only has to worry about filling up once, before the start of her work week. Her option going forward with Mini in the world of EV is currently 145 miles range, if optimum conditions. She would need to charge the thing every day, to confidently get to work and back the next day. I don't know how much 4 charges would cost against the equivalent in fuel. How can going from 340 to 145 miles be considered a forward step? The only way that could ever be considered is if the EV price came down, a lot. Chinese models are needed to kick others in to touch.

But how many people are driving ~140 miles a day? Most drivers simply don't.
So again whilst EVs may not suit you and your girlfriends use cases, you must accept that you both do not match the average (or the majority) of UK drivers and so the wider market may well move in directions away from your usage since you make up the minority.

 

[Energy]

She only has to worry about filling up once, before the start of her work week. Her option going forward with Mini in the world of EV is currently 145 miles range, if optimum conditions. She would need to charge the thing every day, to confidently get to work and back the next day. I don't know how much 4 charges would cost against the equivalent in fuel. How can going from 340 to 145 miles be considered a forward step? The only way that could ever be considered is if the EV price came down, a lot.

The current Mini EV has a short range, its the normal model but with batteries squeezed in rather than a car designed to be electric from the start. As such the battery is rather small at only 32kwh.The next Mini EV is expected to get up to 185 or 250 miles depending on the battery selected.

As for the price I agree that Mini are currently charging a lot new but its selling well so there isn't much incentive for Mini to drop the prices

 

[jon0844]

Mini is a premium brand, like the Smart car has become. Sadly cheap EVs like the Citroën e-C3 aren't sold here yet. The C3 is one of the more affordable petrol cars still available, at £14k, and ideally we need a EV with a similar low spec (don't even think the C3 at that point has a colour screen or Android Auto/Car Play support) that competes with that.

 

[Pugwash]

That is a good point. Since an EV costs more than an ICE equivalent, you need to do a lot of miles before you reach the cross-over point (where it is financially more worthwhile to buy an EV), but an EV may only be used for shorter journeys for range issues, so you may not reach that cross-over point.

You also have to take into account reduced servicing costs. There is very little to service on an electric car.

A used Leaf or Zoe at less than 5k

Would make a very cheap to run car and would serve most of your needs.

 

[Noddy]

Another Real World Example. The Girlfriend has a Mini. It will do 340 miles at least, on a full tank. She commutes 4 days per week from Pontefract to York. Approximately 65 to 70 miles per day depending on route taken. She only has to worry about filling up once, before the start of her work week. Her option going forward with Mini in the world of EV is currently 145 miles range, if optimum conditions. She would need to charge the thing every day, to confidently get to work and back the next day. I don't know how much 4 charges would cost against the equivalent in fuel. How can going from 340 to 145 miles be considered a forward step? The only way that could ever be considered is if the EV price came down, a lot. Chinese models are needed to kick others in to touch.

As others have pointed out that is an unusually large commute, and the Mini is a converted ICE car from a premium brand (the ICE mini is far more expensive than other comparable cars). One could by an MG4 for less and have a bigger car with a bigger range.

The other thing is if you have a drive or private parking with a charger your girlfriend simply plugs when she gets home and unplugs in the morning (takes 10 seconds). She then simply drives off on her commute and never has to spend those extra 5 minutes once a week calling in at the petrol station (which adds up over the course of a year).

 

[Pugwash]

Another Real World Example. The Girlfriend has a Mini. It will do 340 miles at least, on a full tank. She commutes 4 days per week from Pontefract to York. Approximately 65 to 70 miles per day depending on route taken. She only has to worry about filling up once, before the start of her work week. Her option going forward with Mini in the world of EV is currently 145 miles range, if optimum conditions. She would need to charge the thing every day, to confidently get to work and back the next day. I don't know how much 4 charges would cost against the equivalent in fuel. How can going from 340 to 145 miles be considered a forward step? The only way that could ever be considered is if the EV price came down, a lot. Chinese models are needed to kick others in to touch.

I and probably you went from a Nokia or Blackberry which I had to plug in once a week or every few days to a smart phone I have to plug in every night.

The plug for the car is on the front of the house, so I don't really have to think about it, just plug it in when I get home, it's just like plugging the mobile in every night, and wake up to a full charge. With the bonus it is on a cheap overnight rate.

It is not considered a forward step, more of a necessary one in terms of air pollution and co2 emissions.

 

[GardenRail]

I and probably you went from a Nokia or Blackberry which I had to plug in once a week or every few days to a smart phone I have to plug in every night.

The plug for the car is on the front of the house, so I don't really have to think about it, just plug it in when I get home, it's just like plugging the mobile in every night, and wake up to a full charge. With the bonus it is on a cheap overnight rate.

It is not considered a forward step, more of a necessary one in terms of air pollution and co2 emissions.

And when you don't have a drive?

 

[Bald Rick]

Her option going forward with Mini in the world of EV is currently 145 miles range, if optimum conditions.

The electric Mini currently has a poor range. The new version (here soon) will be available with 186 mile and 249 mile ranges. Meanwhile there’s loads of other options, eg the Fiat 500 EV has a 199 mile range, the Renault Megane EV 299, the VW ID2 will have 280 when it arrives, and is promised to be less than £22k new (although I bet it will be nearer £25k)

I don't know how much 4 charges would cost against the equivalent in fuel.

typically 4 charges to get 70 miles (each) back in the battery for an electric Mini (4miles/kWH) would be a total of £5.60 on a typical overnight low rate domestic energy tariff, or £21 if you are on the standard electric rate.

Assuming 45mpg for a petrol version, the same distance would be £41. Assuming you get the low rate (and why wouldn’t you, if you’re using that much), that’s over £1500 per year saving for a 4 day / 44 week commute.

 

[Noddy]

And when you don't have a drive?

There are lots of options depending on use case and circumstances. For your example I certainly wouldn’t get a current generation electric Mini! TBH I would probably wait until there is on street charging/charging points in your car park (if in a flat with a car park-you haven’t actually told us your exact situation)/very close by. But as has been pointed out your girlfriends commute is well above the UK average, which AIUI is about 20 miles per day so it’s a very edge case example (although I do know about long commutes-in my previous job it was 80 miles everyday until covid!).

 

[Bald Rick]

But as has been pointed out your girlfriends commute is well above the UK average

To pick up the commuting point - one of my friends has a Skoda Enyaq, range around 300miles, and commutes 55miles each way daily. He’s also taken the car to on trips to Cornwall, Scotland and the Charente with no issue. He has saved a fortune in fuel.

 

[GardenRail]

The electric Mini currently has a poor range. The new version (here soon) will be available with 186 mile and 249 mile ranges. Meanwhile there’s loads of other options, eg the Fiat 500 EV has a 199 mile range, the Renault Megane EV 299, the VW ID2 will have 280 when it arrives, and is promised to be less than £22k new (although I bet it will be nearer £25k)




typically 4 charges to get 70 miles (each) back in the battery for an electric Mini (4miles/kWH) would be £5.60 on a typical overnight low rate domestic energy tariff, or £21 if you are on the standard electric rate.

Assuming 45mpg for a petrol version, the same distance would be £41. Assuming you get the low rate (and why wouldn’t you, if you’re using that much), that’s over £1500 per year saving for a 4 day / 44 week commute.

Possibly pedantic, but she also works nights, so certainly not competitive in that regard. But thanks for a detailed answer.

The electric Mini currently has a poor range. The new version (here soon) will be available with 186 mile and 249 mile ranges. Meanwhile there’s loads of other options, eg the Fiat 500 EV has a 199 mile range, the Renault Megane EV 299, the VW ID2 will have 280 when it arrives, and is promised to be less than £22k new (although I bet it will be nearer £25k)




typically 4 charges to get 70 miles (each) back in the battery for an electric Mini (4miles/kWH) would be £5.60 on a typical overnight low rate domestic energy tariff, or £21 if you are on the standard electric rate.

Assuming 45mpg for a petrol version, the same distance would be £41. Assuming you get the low rate (and why wouldn’t you, if you’re using that much), that’s over £1500 per year saving for a 4 day / 44 week commute.

£21 for a 70 mile charge.... Have I read that correctly if doing it day time, or have I got confused?

 

[Energy]

£21 for a 70 mile charge.... Have I read that correctly if doing it day time, or have I got confused?

4 charges on the standard daytime.

Most EV charge points let you set them to charge at the cheapest hours with some having a boost (like the Zappi) button on the unit to easily tell it to ignore it for night shifts (all will have it in the app)

 

[Bald Rick]

£21 for a 70 mile charge.... Have I read that correctly if doing it day time, or have I got confused?

£21 for 4 charges totalling 280 miles (I’ve edited the post to make it clearer), on the price capped domestic standard electric rate. That rate will be reducing later in the year.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Possibly pedantic, but she also works nights, so certainly not competitive in that regard. But thanks for a detailed answer.
...................................

I wonder. What are the options for charging overnight at or near work ?.

 

[ninja-lewis]

I wonder. What are the options for charging overnight at or near work ?.

Also worth noting that daytime electricity will become cheaper as we increase our solar PV capacity.

 

[GardenRail]

£21 for 4 charges totalling 280 miles (I’ve exited the post to make it clearer), on the price capped domestic standard electric rate. That rate will be reducing later in the year.

Phew, that's a relief!

 

[WelshBluebird]

And when you don't have a drive?

Rapid chargers at service stations etc, charging at work, charging at the supermarket during your weekly shop, street side chargers (e.g. lamp posts), etc etc.
The thing to get your head around with EVs is that not everyone has to charge in exactly the same way, and even the same person can charge in multiple ways. You don't have to have a charger at home if you can charge other ways.

Of course, not everyone is going to fit those scenarios right now. But right now they don't have to, you can just not get an EV for the time being. And in the future, chargers will be much more widespread (just look how many we have now compared to 10 years ago) and charging times will be much quicker (again look at how fast the more modern cars can charge now compared to 10 years ago). If you can charge to 80% in 15 minutes (which isn't far off existing tech) and have a decent number of chargers at every service station or petrol station, then you don't need to have hundreds of miles of charge in one go.

 

[DelW]

Of course, not everyone is going to fit those scenarios right now. But right now they don't have to, you can just not get an EV for the time being. And in the future, chargers will be much more widespread (just look how many we have now compared to 10 years ago) and charging times will be much quicker (again look at how fast the more modern cars can charge now compared to 10 years ago). If you can charge to 80% in 15 minutes (which isn't far off existing tech) and have a decent number of chargers at every service station or petrol station, then you don't need to have hundreds of miles of charge in one go.

My last employer had a ruling in place, introduced after several serious or fatal accidents, that no-one travelling on company business should drive more than two hours at a stretch, and should then take a minimum ten minute break between stints.

Driving in compliance with that, in an EV with minimum 200 miles range and 80% charge in 15 minutes, any length of journey would only take a similar time to an ICE car (caveat: as long as you don't have to queue for a charger).