Lower quadrant signals

[Kevin51]

I just been watching the film Crow Hollow released in 1952 so early British Railways era. There is a shot of a woman catching a train at Gomshall and Shere station which on on the Guildford to Dorking line. Before seeing the train or the station name a lower quadrant signal is seen in the background suggestion a GWR station but the train had a Southern Loco, looked like an N or U class. You can see a photo here https://www.reelstreets.com/films/crow-hollow/ capture 11. You can just about make out the lower quadrant signal.
All the film locations are in Surrey so not a disguised station. I thought only the GWR had lower quadrant signals, in BR days at least?

 

[Gloster]

Most railways originally used lower-quadrant signals, but the LMS, LNER and SR all standardised on upper-quadrants; only the GWR stuck with lowers. It took many years to change over and there were still quite few a lower-quadrants even after the end of steam: no point in replacing a signal until it was worn out.

 

[507020]

Most railways originally used lower-quadrant signals, but the LMS, LNER and SR all standardised on upper-quadrants; only the GWR stuck with lowers. It took many years to change over and there were still quite few a lower-quadrants even after the end of steam: no point in replacing a signal until it was worn out.

There are still quite a few lower-quadrants on the former Western Region now. They must represent a significant proportion of all remaining semaphores.

 

[Gloster]

There are still quite a few lower-quadrants on the former Western Region now. They must represent a significant proportion of all remaining semaphores.

Off the top of my head I would say 100% or virtually so. I think the last non-(G)WR one on the National Network was at Ketton, but I have a feeling it has been replaced.

 

[jp4712]

Plenty of Upper Quadrant semaphores around if you know where to look. The Furness Coast line is one such area, the line between Harrogate and York is another. I think perhaps you meant that the Ketton signal was the last non-Western Lower Quadrant signal.

Going back to the OP, almost all main line signals were Lower Quadrant until, as Gloster says, the LMS/LNER/SR started to move over to Upper. But this took decades to complete, Lower Quadrant (ex LNWR) signals were in use on the West Coast Main Line into the 1960s.

 

[Cowley]

Eggesford station on the Barnstaple to Exeter line had a combination of both due to it being a former Southern Railway (previously LSWR) route that was incorporated into the Western Region, meaning that if signals needed replacing they were replaced with lower quadrants.

I think Barnstaple may have had a mixed bag too actually.

 

[Graham H]

Banbury used to have a mix of upper and lower before replacement by colour lights didnt it and Shrewsbury still does as far as I recall

 

[30907]

Most railways originally used lower-quadrant signals, but the LMS, LNER and SR all standardised on upper-quadrants; only the GWR stuck with lowers. It took many years to change over and there were still quite few a lower-quadrants even after the end of steam: no point in replacing a signal until it was worn out.

On the SR L/Q signals steadily disappeared in the 50s and 60s, replaced either by colour lights or U/Qs, but there was a L/Q starter at Mitcham at least as late as 1971 and IIRC one at Lymington Pier until abolished.
The automatic signals on Woking-Basingstoke (we've had a thread on them recently) were also (mostly) L/Q until 1967.

Eggesford station on the Barnstaple to Exeter line had a combination of both due to it being a former Southern Railway (previously LSWR) route that was incorporated into the Western Region, meaning that if signals needed replacing they were replaced with lower quadrants.

I think Barnstaple may have had a mixed bag too actually.

...while Maiden Newton became SR and got standard rail-post U/Qs!

Even more OT - the GW had its own U/Qs at Oxford North Jn on the Up Main, complete with an unusual cast spectacle plate. ISTR it was to avoid confusion with the next signals at Oxford Station North (North Jn was a WW2 addition). They were clearly visible from Walton Well Road overbridge just further north.

 

[edwin_m]

Banbury used to have a mix of upper and lower before replacement by colour lights didnt it and Shrewsbury still does as far as I recall

They actually installed a new lower quadrant there not many years before re-signalling, to allow reversal by diverted trains during (I think) GWML electrification. At the time Network Rail policy was that any new signal had to be of the same type as the surrounding ones, and it's perhaps understandable that a bright colour light surrounded by much dimmer semaphores might have caused confusion at night.

This policy didn't always apply - Shrewsbury for example used to be a real mishmash (and may still be - years since I visited).

On the SR L/Q signals steadily disappeared in the 50s and 60s, replaced either by colour lights or U/Qs, but there was a L/Q starter at Mitcham at least as late as 1971 and IIRC one at Lymington Pier until abolished.
The automatic signals on Woking-Basingstoke (we've had a thread on them recently) were also (mostly) L/Q until 1967.


...while Maiden Newton became SR and got standard rail-post U/Qs!

Even more OT - the GW had its own U/Qs at Oxford North Jn on the Up Main, complete with an unusual cast spectacle plate. ISTR it was to avoid confusion with the next signals at Oxford Station North (North Jn was a WW2 addition). They were clearly visible from Walton Well Road overbridge just further north.

There were also some upper quadrants in a yard just east of Newport until quite recently.

 

[Kevin51]

Isn't the Dudden Hill Line from Acton to Cricklewood semiphores?

 

[Magdalia]

I thought only the GWR had lower quadrant signals, in BR days at least?

I think that some ex Great Eastern Railway lower quadrant signals survived to the late 1960s/early 1970s but can't find any pictures.

And do ex Great Northern Railway somersault signals count as lower quadrant? Do any of those still survive on the Skegness line?

 

[High Dyke]

Off the top of my head I would say 100% or virtually so. I think the last non-(G)WR one on the National Network was at Ketton, but I have a feeling it has been replaced.

Nope, it's still in use.

I think that some ex Great Eastern Railway lower quadrant signals survived to the late 1960s/early 1970s but can't find any pictures.

And do ex Great Northern Railway somersault signals count as lower quadrant? Do any of those still survive on the Skegness line?

Not on the main running lines, but there's still one by the docks swing bridge in Boston.

 

[Gloster]

It tended to be that whenever a line moved from either the LMR or SR to the WR, or vice-versa, signalling practice became the one of the region that took over. So a replacement signal on an SR line transferred to the WR would normally be lower-quadrant, even if it was surrounded by uppers. I wonder if this was because all work had to pass through the main regional signal works, Reading on the WR, and they stuck to their own usual regional practices.

There were also some upper quadrants in a yard just east of Newport until quite recently.

If this was East Usk Junction, then the box burnt down in 2009 and I suspect that the signals were removed.

 

[6Gman]

They actually installed a new lower quadrant there not many years before re-signalling, to allow reversal by diverted trains during (I think) GWML electrification. At the time Network Rail policy was that any new signal had to be of the same type as the surrounding ones, and it's perhaps understandable that a bright colour light surrounded by much dimmer semaphores might have caused confusion at night.

This policy didn't always apply - Shrewsbury for example used to be a real mishmash (and may still be - years since I visited).

There were also some upper quadrants in a yard just east of Newport until quite recently.

Shrewsbury is still a total mishmash. Colour light, upper and lower quadrant semaphores including some cute little chunky ones. It all works, so why change it?

 

[O L Leigh]

I think the last non-(G)WR one on the National Network was at Ketton, but I have a feeling it has been replaced.

Not yet.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Yeovil Pen Mill has a mixture of upper and lower quadrants.
On the SDR there is a genuine BR(w) upper quadrant in use. It came from the GW/GC joint line.
At Exeter Central this LSWR example lasted until replaced by Exeter Panel in the mid 80s. Behind it is the new post for E312.

 

[Gloster]

Yeovil Pen Mill has a mixture of upper and lower quadrants.
On the SDR there is a genuine BR(w) upper quadrant in use. It came from the GW/GC joint line.
At Exeter Central this LSWR example lasted until replaced by Exeter Panel in the mid 80s. Behind it is the new post for E312.
View attachment 123887

If I remember correctly, Yeovil switched from WR to SR and then back again in the course of around ten years, so signalling would have been a bit of a mixture.

The signal at Exeter Central (oh, I remember it well) was a bit of a special as it was fitted under the canopy: it had to be lower-quadrant in order for the arm to visible. I suspect that it was an SR job as it has a lattice post, but probably didn’t date back to LSWR days. (Although, knowing the SR’s habit of reusing things, some of the components might have.) If that is the post for E312 in the background, could the date of the photo be 1986, not 1976?

 

[zwk500]

Isn't the Dudden Hill Line from Acton to Cricklewood semiphores?

Believe it is still yes

It tended to be that whenever a line moved from either the LMR or SR to the WR, or vice-versa, signalling practice became the one of the region that took over. So a replacement signal on an SR line transferred to the WR would normally be lower-quadrant, even if it was surrounded by uppers. I wonder if this was because all work had to pass through the main regional signal works, Reading on the WR, and they stuck to their own usual regional practices.

Or is it because Western men have a certain idea about the 'correct' way to run a railway?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Shrewsbury is still a total mishmash. Colour light, upper and lower quadrant semaphores including some cute little chunky ones. It all works, so why change it?

And, of course, they are operated from a mix of ex-LNWR and ex-GWR signal boxes, despite the generally "GW" feel to the station area.
I'm not sure there was ever a "standard" setup at Shrewsbury, thanks to its joint ownership and alternating maintenance regime.

I can remember an LNWR lower quadrant gantry at the east end of Chester station in the 1960s - don't know if it survived until the PSB arrived in 1985.

 

[John Webb]

....I can remember an LNWR lower quadrant gantry at the east end of Chester station in the 1960s - don't know if it survived until the PSB arrived in 1985.

This shot of the East end of Chester station in 1965 shows numerous LQ signals:
East end of Chester General on a Summer Saturday

© Copyright Ben Brooksbank and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
(Click on photo to go to the larger original on the Geograph website)
Unfortunately there is no photo of that end of the station until 1991 when there are colour light signals and a much simplified track layout, so I've no ideas when the LQ signals went!

 

[John Luxton]

A mix of Lower and Upper Quadrants around Shrewsbury LMS/GWR joint.

Both photographed earlier this year:

Shrewsbury General, Shrewsbury, Shropshire - March 22, 2022

Located at the end of Platform 7 at Shrewsbury is this fairly rare example of a Great Western Railway lower quadrant bracket starter signal with central pivot. Used where space was restricted.

www.jhluxton.com

Shrewsbury General, Shrewsbury, Shropshire - March 09, 2022

GWR Lower Quadrant starter signal for Platform 3 at Shrewsbury.

www.jhluxton.com

 

[zwk500]

A mix of Lower and Upper Quadrants around Shrewsbury LMS/GWR joint.

Shrewsbury General, Shrewsbury, Shropshire - March 01, 2022

View from The Dana Footbridge which carried a public footpath across Shrewsbury Station from the Castle to Shrewsbury Prison.

www.jhluxton.com

This photo of yours shows it brilliantly Disc Shunts, LQ, UQ, Colour Lights all mixed on one end of the station. Shrewsbury does seem like a 'what've you got in the van' approach. Although the UQ signals do appear to be slightly newer, so is it the case that there was an intent to standardise but the Small LQ signals couldn't be replaced for space reasons, and it was too much to put a Colour light in?

 

[Ashley Hill]

If I remember correctly, Yeovil switched from WR to SR and then back again in the course of around ten years, so signalling would have been a bit of a mixture.

The UQs at Pen Mill were installed around 5yrs ago replacing the life expired signals on the down end of the platforms. The square post with route indicator can be seen at the Yeovil Steam Centre up at Junction.

If that is the post for E312 in the background, could the date of the photo be 1986, not 1976?

That’s the date John Hinson gives on his photo. I’m assuming that it’s E312 as it’s in the correct position and looking brand new which as you say would make Johns date wrong.

 

[matchmaker]

The last LQ in Scotland was at Stirling Middle. It survived until about 2000.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I just been watching the film Crow Hollow released in 1952 so early British Railways era. There is a shot of a woman catching a train at Gomshall and Shere station which on on the Guildford to Dorking line. Before seeing the train or the station name a lower quadrant signal is seen in the background suggestion a GWR station but the train had a Southern Loco, looked like an N or U class. You can see a photo here https://www.reelstreets.com/films/crow-hollow/ capture 11. You can just about make out the lower quadrant signal.
All the film locations are in Surrey so not a disguised station. I thought only the GWR had lower quadrant signals, in BR days at least?

Likewise, was watching that (again) last night. In one's younger years it was (I found) easy to associate lower quadrants, and right hand drive steam locos, solely with the GWR, but neither of course is strictly true

 

[MichaelAMW]

That’s the date John Hinson gives on his photo. I’m assuming that it’s E312 as it’s in the correct position and looking brand new which as you say would make Johns date wrong.

I'm reasonably sure that the signal at Exeter Central was removed in Ocober 1984 - it was the very first bit of the Exeter PSB signalling to be done. That's not to say the date on Mr Hinson's photo is wrong - perhaps there was an earlier plan to replace the signal that only got to the stage of a post being put in.

 

[Rescars]

Where do banner repeaters fit in, I wonder? I believe it was usual for banners to be LQ or UQ to mirror the signal being repeated. Some of these may be long survivors. Does any one know of situations where a UQ banner repeated a LQ signal or vice versa?

 

[Tester]

Where do banner repeaters fit in, I wonder? I believe it was usual for banners to be LQ or UQ to mirror the signal being repeated. Some of these may be long survivors. Does any one know of situations where a UQ banner repeated a LQ signal or vice versa?

Only tangentially related, but a quirk I recall from the past (at least 1970s) is that at Tring station, either the down fast banner repeater was lower quadrant and the down slow (split for the north junction) was upper, or the other way round. Given that they were both normally 'off', looked most strange! Clearly nothing to do with the signal being repeated as colour light territory.

 

[tomuk]

Shrewsbury General, Shrewsbury, Shropshire - March 01, 2022

View from The Dana Footbridge which carried a public footpath across Shrewsbury Station from the Castle to Shrewsbury Prison.

www.jhluxton.com

This photo of yours shows it brilliantly Disc Shunts, LQ, UQ, Colour Lights all mixed on one end of the station. Shrewsbury does seem like a 'what've you got in the van' approach. Although the UQ signals do appear to be slightly newer, so is it the case that there was an intent to standardise but the Small LQ signals couldn't be replaced for space reasons, and it was too much to put a Colour light in?

The upper quadrants at the end of P4 are newer they were lower quadrant up until at least the late 70s possibly 1984/5? when some rationalisation was carried out. A large gantry at Abbey Foregate was replaced by an upper quadrant and theatre indicator, this has now been changed to a colour light, and two large gantries to the north were simplified being replaced by colour lights co worked with Crewe Junc and Crewe Bank.

The definitive set of photos etc is the excellent site below:

Adrian the Rock - Signals at Shrewsbury

 

[Rescars]

Only tangentially related, but a quirk I recall from the past (at least 1970s) is that at Tring station, either the down fast banner repeater was lower quadrant and the down slow (split for the north junction) was upper, or the other way round. Given that they were both normally 'off', looked most strange! Clearly nothing to do with the signal being repeated as colour light territory.

Strange indeed. There must have been a reason for this. It is perhaps surprising that banners have been part and parcel of colour light signalling and have continued in use long after other semaphores have been replaced.

Even more tangentially related, the "national speed limit applies" roadsign (which is apparently borrowed from railway practice - as noted in another thread on the forum) happily remains universally LQ!