LU/Elizabeth Line 4G update

[bicbasher]

The speed cap seems to have been lifted at Tottenham Court Road's EL platforms on EE at least. Still capped at Farringdon and Liverpool Street.

 

[MrJeeves]

Had the chance to pop up today and test Lizzy Line 4G.

Entire experience seems a bit half-arsed. Whether it's the antenna units used on the line or something else, performance is very bad compared to the LU rollout.

The Tube mobile coverage in stations is provided through active antenna units manufactured by SOLID (specifically part of their LRN or "low power remote nodes" product line). On the Elizabeth line, they're more like passive antennas being driven by the radios in whatever radio room or baseband hotel they're located in. They also seem to be rather low power considering the number of them across the platforms.



The peak I reached was about 300 Mbps download on EE, which was a bit spotty and often dropped to sub 100 Mbps, and other networks struggled to reach or exceed 100 Mbps.

I don't know if this is a backhaul constraint, but the constraint is most certainly not at my device.

O2 doesn't aggregate different LTE bands, which sounds like typical O2, so you either get kicked onto 10 MHz of Band 1 (slow), or, if the network is feeling nice, you get put on 40 MHz of B40 (slightly less slow).

I couldn't get any 3G signal on any operator, and only O2 had 2G (on 1800 MHz, similar to their tube rollout).

 

[jon0844]

It was the uplink that disappointed me most.

 

[Gigabit]

I'm honestly shocked it's so poor, I'd have thought it would be better than the Underground considering how modern the whole system is supposed to be.

I'll have a try when I'm back in London - but have to say I've had no issues with bands aggregating on O2 on my iPhone.

Has there been any explanation as to why it's not 5G?

 

[MrJeeves]

I'll have a try when I'm back in London - but have to say I've had no issues with bands aggregating on O2 on my iPhone.

I mean it's literally not set up network side for capacity reasons on many heavily-loaded Nokia vendor sites. Same happens for the "temporary" Brighton pier site that turns up every summer (though apparently it's becoming permanent from this/next year!)

Has there been any explanation as to why it's not 5G?

Originally interference (or potential interference) due to out of band emissions from the networking equipment, but this seems to be sorted and 5G will arrive on the Elizabeth Line next year according to the TfL press release the other day.

 

[Gigabit]

I mean it's literally not set up network side for capacity reasons on many heavily-loaded Nokia vendor sites. Same happens for the "temporary" Brighton pier site that turns up every summer (though apparently it's becoming permanent from this/next year!)

Originally interference (or potential interference) due to out of band emissions from the networking equipment, but this seems to be sorted and 5G will arrive on the Elizabeth Line next year according to the TfL press release the other day.

I don't doubt what you are saying but as I said I've had no issues with band aggregation where I use my phone, perhaps I am lucky on the area. My experience of O2 seems to be completely different to most people I've spoken to on the Internet, as most people seem to think O2 is incredibly slow but again where I use it I've had a great experience. Again, perhaps a London-centric thing.

I just can't understand why the performance is so much worse than the LU, seems very strange.

 

[jon0844]

At Gatwick Airport a few days ago, O2 was way behind there also. Vodafone is still terrible outside the main terminal building (e.g. train station platforms, car parks, McDonald's, KFC etc).

If you're the type of person deciding what to watch on the plane and wanting to download some content for offline viewing (which, let's be honest, most people will do last minute as your mood changes on what you want to watch or listen to), O2 will maybe not be for you.

Three 736.5/61.51/18ms
Vodafone 522.5/65.07/25ms
EE 420.7/28.23/29ms
O2 - 92.4/16.62/38ms

Usual disclaimer; speed tests aren't the be all and end all, results based on just one test in one location (near departures/Wetherspoons, as I didn't go airside) etc. To be taken as a real-world guide and nothing more.

 

[Gigabit]

At Gatwick Airport a few days ago, O2 was way behind there also. Vodafone is still terrible outside the main terminal building (e.g. train station platforms, car parks, McDonald's, KFC etc).

If you're the type of person deciding what to watch on the plane and wanting to download some content for offline viewing (which, let's be honest, most people will do last minute as your mood changes on what you want to watch or listen to), O2 will maybe not be for you.

Three 736.5/61.51/18ms
Vodafone 522.5/65.07/25ms
EE 420.7/28.23/29ms
O2 - 92.4/16.62/38ms

Usual disclaimer; speed tests aren't the be all and end all, results based on just one test in one location (near departures/Wetherspoons, as I didn't go airside) etc. To be taken as a real-world guide and nothing more.

Got to be honest, I would be perfectly happy with 10Mb on my phone. Your use case there is a good one but not something I’ve ever done, all my media is downloaded offline.

My experience personally is that you get these crazy speed tests on EE and Three but then they don’t work well indoors. I was at a pub in Central London last week and I had to lend two people my hotspot as EE and Three didn’t have any signal. Outside they were great! At home here EE and Three have band 20 only, delivering an amazing 0.1Mb and Vodafone/O2 are delivering 15-20. So whilst not fast at all, I think where I happen to be I’ve made the best choice this time - based on all of the data I’ve soon, I still wouldn’t recommend anyone actually copy me though.

I think Vodafone probably strike the best balance.

 

[Recessio]

Not only is O2's 4G/5G terrible, but I also find their "WiFi Extra" a lot of the time won't connect, or takes so long to connect that the train has pulled out of the station before completing.

Given the results in this thread, I might look to switch to another operator.

 

[Gigabit]

Not only is O2's 4G/5G terrible, but I also find their "WiFi Extra" a lot of the time won't connect, or takes so long to connect that the train has pulled out of the station before completing.

Given the results in this thread, I might look to switch to another operator.

If O2 doesn’t work for you then I would definitely switch. You owe these companies nothing.

 

[MrJeeves]

At Gatwick Airport a few days ago, O2 was way behind there also. Vodafone is still terrible outside the main terminal building (e.g. train station platforms, car parks, McDonald's, KFC etc).

O2 is fine inside the terminal, but still slower than the rest. At the station, they recently went live with a DAS solution while the other networks aren't on that yet. This has made the network usable now, at least on Platforms 5 and 6. Outside of these places, you're lucky to get over 1 Mbps, though.

Vodafone are the same as O2 as they share almost all sites across the UK. Inside the terminals, though, they have littered the ceilings with their own DAS solution with proper 5G which can net you up to about 900 Mbps depending on usage.

Three/EE mainly stick to the sites outside the airport in landside departures/arrivals as they've got a big streetworks site near the South Terminal southbound local bus stop. Once you head airside, Three is crippled by this and EE switches over to the in-building solution.

 

[Gigabit]

O2 is fine inside the terminal, but still slower than the rest. At the station, they recently went live with a DAS solution while the other networks aren't on that yet. This has made the network usable now, at least on Platforms 5 and 6. Outside of these places, you're lucky to get over 1 Mbps, though.

Vodafone are the same as O2 as they share almost all sites across the UK. Inside the terminals, though, they have littered the ceilings with their own DAS solution with proper 5G which can net you up to about 900 Mbps depending on usage.

Three/EE mainly stick to the sites outside the airport in landside departures/arrivals as they've got a big streetworks site near the South Terminal southbound local bus stop. Once you head airside, Three is crippled by this and EE switches over to the in-building solution.

Brilliant!

I thought Three would be on it too as aren't they providing a solution along the entirety of the line?

 

[MrJeeves]

I thought Three would be on it too as aren't they providing a solution along the entirety of the line?

This was a completely separate project as part of the station refurb over the last few years.

 

[Gigabit]

This was a completely separate project as part of the station refurb over the last few years.

Standard non-joined up thinking, sounds like the UK.

 

[MrJeeves]

Chancery Lane and Holborn were live today

 

[Gigabit]

Chancery Lane and Holborn were live today

They were working for me a few weeks back on O2 then they went off. Assume it was testing

 

[Gigabit]

Had a response back from TfL regarding my query about covering stations above ground:

The contract mandates certain areas of coverage where there is currently no availability, these areas are underground and therefore cannot be covered in any other way. These areas need a special solution over and above the standard approach of the Mobile Network Operators (MNOs) who typically use monopoles or rooftop installations to provide coverage in London. TfL and its partner Boldyn networks can only facilitate the transmission of the MNOs network underground.

I appreciate their candid reply even if it is very disappointing. How this can be squared with covering every “station” as was the original promise I don’t know.

While work remains on track for a significant proportion of the entire Tube network to have 4G and 5G mobile coverage by the end of 2024, there may be some sections of the Tube where work will continue throughout 2025/26 to fully introduce coverage within stations and tunnels. This work will be primarily be on some sections outside of Central London, sections of the Circle and District line where a number of stations already have limited mobile coverage due to being closer to the surface, as well as where smaller tunnelled sections need to be treated individually.

Also it is official, the project will not complete on time.

Mayor heralds first Elizabeth line stations to get high-speed mobile coverage

Mayor heralds first Elizabeth line stations to get high-speed mobile coverage

tfl.gov.uk

 

[stuving]

I appreciate their candid reply even if it is very disappointing. How this can be squared with covering every “station” as was the original promise I don’t know.

Well, Boldyn aren't providing a network, just extra antennas to extend the MNOs' networks. So you could say that the MNOs' own antennas extend Boldyin's coverage in the same way!

 

[JonnyM]

Chancery Lane and Holborn were live today

It appears the section between Bond Street and Marble Arch is also live (?)

 

[James H]

The '5G on the Elizabeth line' document attached to this FOI response may be of interest

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

First para:

It is often hard to explain the intricacies of delivery in the limited s pace a pres s release allows and so the approach to delivering 5G on the E lizabeth line may not be completely explained by our external communications . T his note is des igned to more clearly explain our approach. T he end goal is to have 4G and 5G deployed fully in both s tations and tunnels on the E lizabeth line. In the s hort term to facilitate early delivery we will initially deploy 4G in the s tations and 4G and 5G in the tunnels – this will be s ubject to further testing in both s tations and tunnels . T unnel tes ting has yet to be completed, although we don’t anticipate any is s ues from the intermodulation s tudies that we have already completed. We obvious ly take the tes ting as pect of delivery very serious ly. T he tunnel 5G coverage will inevitably als o leak into the s tation to provide s ome coverage there too.

 

[MrJeeves]

The '5G on the Elizabeth line' document attached to this FOI response may be of interest

FOI request detail

FOI request detail

tfl.gov.uk

You're welcome for that request

 

[Gigabit]

Imagine building a station and not planning for easy run of cables :/

 

[JonnyM]

Imagine building a station and not planning for easy run of cables :/

When I read this I thought are they having a laugh? I can understand the reasoning behind 4G/5G being difficult to install on the exisiting deep level system because of lack of space but on the Elizabeth line??? Having said that, this is the same line that had initial problems with 4G/5G interfering with the signalling system.

 

[MrJeeves]

I mean it's inconvenient to run cables, which I understand as presumably significant work would be needed to run them behind fascias and whatnot, compared to where LUL just have cables running across the roof, walls, etc.

At least EL stations had antenna systems installed from the get-go, which will be serviceable for the requirements of mobile coverage.

I'd love to get 950 Mbps download in a EL station, but I'm not going to complain too much about my ~80 Mbps.

 

[mrmartin]

Used it in EL stations for the first time today and it was useless on O2. 10MHz of L2100, nothing would load. Did get an incoming WhatsApp but outbound couldn't send.

Hugely underwhelming after all this time!

 

[jon0844]

That's pretty much O2 in a lot of places above ground too.

So much 5G coverage is a tiny amount of 5G 700MHz spectrum and given it can't aggregate with as many 4G bands - it's usually slower than 4G as a result. Turn off 5G and you might get some of the 2300MHz bands and some very decent speeds in comparison.

 

[JonnyM]

Chancery Lane and Holborn were live today

TfL have updated their coverage map and it is now showing as live between Holland Park, all the way to Bank. Not sure when it was updated, although it says February.

https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/station-wifi#on-this-page-0

 

[Busman]

as well as where smaller tunnelled sections need to be treated individually.

I would assume that means the small section of tunnel between Leyton and Stratford?

Would they even bother with that section seeing as you're barely in it before coming out again?

 

[James H]

Another newly published FOI https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-3678-2324

With regards to 5G on the Elizabeth line the end goal is to have 4G and 5G deployed fully in both stations and tunnels on the Elizabeth line. In the short term to facilitate early delivery we will initially deploy 4G in the stations and 4G and 5G in the tunnels – this will be subject to further testing in both stations and tunnels . Tunnel testing has yet to be completed, although we don’t anticipate any issues from the intermodulation studies that we have already completed. We obviously take the testing aspect of delivery very seriously. The tunnel 5G coverage will inevitably also leak into the station to provide some coverage there too.

For efficiencies’ sake, as far as possible, we are using the already installed infrastructure to provide cellular coverage. We are also using the maximum number of frequencies to help the Mobile Network Operators (MNOs) provide the best possible service. For the tunnels we are only using the existing antenna system (leaky feeders in the tunnels). The rest of the infrastructure is new build and therefore we are using the same approach as we are for the London Underground. This allows us to provide the same service as with the London Underground with both 4G and 5G available.

In the stations we are also initially using the existing station antenna system. It differs slightly for the two types of station, in LU managed stations the infrastructure is shared with all other systems, whereas in Rail for London (RfL) managed stations there are two antenna systems with a slightly different configuration of systems deployed. We repeat the testing on each. However, the major obstacle is that the existing infrastructure does not support the higher frequencies that the MNOs require for their 5G coverage. This is the reason that we are not initially deploying 5G in the stations . To overcome this issue, we would need to install the same small-form low power radios that we have installed in the LU stations . Although this seems straightforward the design of the Elizabeth line stations makes running cables difficult. In the light of this challenge, we decided that early coverage with 4G was a sensible way forward with a longer term aspiration to ins tall the 5G radios at a later date. We will rerun the testing before these new radios are turned on during passenger hours of course.

 

[JonnyM]

Chancery Lane and Holborn were live today

It appears that the section between TCR and Leicester Square is now live.