Lumo: how could the new open access service between Edinburgh & London be improved/developed?

[yorkie]

Please use this thread for any speculative suggestions regarding Lumo.

Regarding the trains: Do they need more luggage space?

Regarding the timetable: Do they need better paths in order to compete with the airlines? This is not at all likely to happen in the immediate future, but the East Coast Mainline timetable recast may provide such an opportunity.

 

[cle]

Aren't minimal journey times savings (I understood the main gains were paths?) from Kings Cross and Werrington also predicated on unfunded stuff like quadding Huntingdon and some other miscellaneous bits I can't remember right now.

Is there anything else in the pipe which would impact journey times? Dunbar didn't especially. Tilt north of Newcastle will never happen. And it's hard to say on the southern half, where 125mph running is so comprehensive. I don't see higher line speeds happening either.

 

[yorkie]

Aren't minimal journey times savings (I understood the main gains were paths?) from Kings Cross and Werrington also predicated on unfunded stuff like quadding Huntingdon and some other miscellaneous bits I can't remember right now.

Is there anything else in the pipe which would impact journey times? Dunbar didn't especially. Tilt north of Newcastle will never happen. And it's hard to say on the southern half, where 125mph running is so comprehensive. I don't see higher line speeds happening either.

None of that is likely to happen (and would be best discussed in a separate speculative ECML upgrade thread) but they could get faster journey times simply by having better paths, which may be possible with the timetable recast.

Lumo trains currently have around 25 minutes (or even more) of pathing time

 

[Ianno87]

1) Recast for better paths

2a) 10 car trains, should 5 cars prove insufficient

2b) Alternatively, a couple more daily paths, especially on weekends/Thursdays/Fridays

3) Possibly a Glasgow Queen Street extension (as I hypothesised in another thread), but would need splitting/joining at Edinburgh if 10 car trains were being run which may not be practical)

4) Perhaps have more trains call Stevenage if it proves popular (and there is capacity on the trains to accommodate the passengers)

 

[Bletchleyite]

They should certainly go to and fill full length trains (either by doubling up or ordering extra vehicles to go to 9 car) before being awarded more paths, lest the ECML start looking like Castlefield, clogged up with short units.

 

[Ianno87]

Interesting to note that Hull Trains are starting to run some 10 car formations at weekends.

 

[greyman42]

Lumo trains currently have around 25 minutes (or even more) of pathing time

If they cannot get better future paths, could they be allowed to use some of the slack with a stop at York?

 

[JonathanH]

If they cannot get better future paths, could they be allowed to use some of the slack with a stop at York?

Why would they need to stop at York? That isn't the reason for running the service. Grand Central already offer an alternative London to York service.

One of the benefits of travelling on Lumo is having an uninterrupted journey from London to Newcastle (and even that stop is really about crew changes).

 

[TheBigD]

With regard to lengthening the trains, or running 2 x 5 car, how practical is this when some Lumo services use platforms 9 & 10 at Kings Cross?

 

[Starmill]

Why would they need to stop at York? That isn't the reason for running the service. Grand Central already offer an alternative London to York service.

One of the benefits of travelling on Lumo is having an uninterrupted journey from London to Newcastle (and even that stop is really about crew changes).

They would be better off picking up and setting down at Peterborough if they were able to add further stops to their schedule. But many of their schedules won't allow time for this. They would be very time competitive on Peterborough to Newcastle or Edinburgh and vice versa.

Calling at York would introduce inefficiency because they wouldn't be able to sell enough York to Newcastle seats to replace all of the London to York ones, at the same yield as London to Newcastle.

If I were running Lumo I'd only want to carry Stevenage / Peterborough to Newcastle / Edinburgh and vv where I thought I couldn't sell out to and from London Kings Cross.

 

[Ianno87]

If they cannot get better future paths, could they be allowed to use some of the slack with a stop at York?

They would be better off picking up and setting down at Peterborough if they were able to add further stops to their schedule. But many of their schedules won't allow time for this. They would be very time competitive on Peterborough to Newcastle or Edinburgh and vice versa.

If they can fill their trains without stopping at Peterborough/York/wherever, why would they add extra stops?

 

[yorkie]

If they can fill their trains without stopping at Peterborough/York/wherever, why would they add extra stops?

That remains to be seen; indeed it may be the case that they can sell more than 5 cars worth but less than 10 cars worth and something else may be needed to justify 10 cars. But it's too early to say.

 

[Starmill]

If they can fill their trains without stopping at Peterborough/York/wherever, why would they add extra stops?

They wouldn't. Indeed, if the trains can be extended to maximum length and still filled with London passengers, I would dispense with any Stevenage stops.

 

[Ianno87]

They wouldn't. Indeed, if the trains can be extended to maximum length and still filled with London passengers, I would dispense with any Stevenage stops.

I suspect the timing of Stevenage stops is tactical - early services northbound and late services southbound - that are more difficult to fill solely with London demand.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect the timing of Stevenage stops is tactical - early services northbound and late services southbound - that are more difficult to fill solely with London demand.

It was also politically convenient for the access application.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suspect the timing of Stevenage stops is tactical - early services northbound and late services southbound - that are more difficult to fill solely with London demand.

And timed to compete with the early flights from (and late flights to) nearby Luton and Stansted to Edinburgh, both of which are popular with business travellers originating from Herts / South Cambs / West Essex. An early morning drive to Stevenage will be much easier for some than driving to Luton / Stansted, parking for the day much cheaper, no security hassle or being at the airport an hour beforehand, nicer seat, and arrival in central Edinburgh 4 hours later.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I believe the lack of stops at any key ECML destinations bar Newcastle (Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham) is because it would be considered abstractive from LNER.

 

[HST43257]

Is it terrible for me to suggest a Lumo 3h59 path? Probably not allowed or realistic but here goes

1624 from London goes quick as possible to Colton Jn (ideally passing 1801) where it goes over to the Leeds lines behind 1P33, a TPE 802 on a LIV-NCL journey. Now the idea here is that the 803 goes round the York avoider and overtakes the TPE ideally. It then goes as fast as possible North towards Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh, following in the 1W24 1600 off KGX, meaning that the Lumo is about 21 minutes faster, and has no real issues with any non-First services. The only potential delay made is about 1 min on that 1P33 at Skelton Jns if the Lumo gets in front (which is ideal).

I’ll grab my coat

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it terrible for me to suggest a Lumo 3h59 path? Probably not allowed or realistic but here goes

1624 from London goes quick as possible to Colton Jn (ideally passing 1801) where it goes over to the Leeds lines behind 1P33, a TPE 802 on a LIV-NCL journey. Now the idea here is that the 803 goes round the York avoider and overtakes the TPE ideally. It then goes as fast as possible North towards Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh, following in the 1W24 1600 off KGX, meaning that the Lumo is about 21 minutes faster, and has no real issues with any non-First services. The only potential delay made is about 1 min on that 1P33 at Skelton Jns if the Lumo gets in front (which is ideal).

I’ll grab my coat

How is it getting past the 1606 Lincoln for starters? Or through Digswell / Woolmer Green with a Thameslink 90seconds ahead?

 

[Starmill]

Sure it wouldn't clash with the 1626 Cleethorpes to Manchester Piccadilly?

 

[Ianno87]

Is it terrible for me to suggest a Lumo 3h59 path? Probably not allowed or realistic but here goes

In the age of online journey planners and passengers picking price over journey time, do such "physiological" timings even matter any more? Especially when you're arriving/departing at odd times of the hour so it's not obvious to the passenger unless they work it out.

E.g. 1500 arriving 1859 "appears" quicker than 1548 arriving 1947 due to rolling over one less hour (so 1548 arriving 1959 doesn't seem much worse than 1548 arriving 1947)

 

[Voyager lad]

3) Possibly a Glasgow Queen Street extension (as I hypothesised in another thread), but would need splitting/joining at Edinburgh if 10 car trains were being run which may not be practical)

The Glasgow Queen St idea is one that I’m very passionate about. I’d like to see the service stop at Lenzie (good links to a wide range of local areas plus the Campsie Fells), Linlithgow (similarly good access to a wide range of local areas) and Edinburgh Park (to provide near to Airport competition). Skipping stations like Falkirk High and Haymarket provides opportunity for potentially faster journey times, minimises any revenue abstraction from ScotRail, as well as creating new links from Lenzie to Edinburgh that haven’t existed since Covid, as well as a quicker and better service from Glasgow to the East Coast

 

[Starmill]

The Glasgow Queen St idea is one that I’m very passionate about. I’d like to see the service stop at Lenzie (good links to a wide range of local areas plus the Campsie Fells), Linlithgow (similarly good access to a wide range of local areas) and Edinburgh Park (to provide near to Airport competition). Skipping stations like Falkirk High and Haymarket provides opportunity for potentially faster journey times, minimises any revenue abstraction from ScotRail, as well as creating new links from Lenzie to Edinburgh that haven’t existed since Covid, as well as a quicker and better service from Glasgow to the East Coast

You want to stop at Lenizie but not serve Falkirk at all?

Even if such an extension were under consideration, which seems extremely unlikely, how on earth could there be more London traffic from Lenizie than Falkirk!?

 

[MotCO]

Is there any reason why it must be 5 or 9 carriages long? Could it be 7 or 8 coaches long, with some of the additional coaches having motors?

 

[Starmill]

Is there any reason why it must be 5 or 9 carriages long? Could it be 7 or 8 coaches long, with some of the additional coaches having motors?

I don't think so. Presumably it could also be 10 or more coaches long if that were desired. Or so Hitachi's modular train marketing implies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The advantage of 5 is that doubling up is feasible.

 

[Voyager lad]

You want to stop at Lenizie but not serve Falkirk at all?

Even if such an extension were under consideration, which seems extremely unlikely, how on earth could there be more London traffic from Lenizie than Falkirk!?

It’s not that I don’t want it to serve Falkirk - but realistically Falkirk doesn’t need the train. Lenzie currently has no services to Edinburgh, despite having a high number of commuters going that way (myself included). We are now left with a 20-25 min wait at Croy (pre covid was a 5 min wait) due to the change in mins past the hour from Queen St and Edinburgh to xx15 & xx45, whereas before the Croy stops were on the now non existent xx00 and xx30 services.

Lenzie is an affluent area with myself and others making the trip to London regularly - I’m travelling tomorrow in fact. Many people would use the service, I know the demand is there. There’s also strong ties between Glasgow & Newcastle as a whole - again many people, including friends of mine in the Lenzie area, make the journey weekly.

 

[Esker-pades]

Yes, the re-cast will allow Lumo to get better paths. The re-casted timetable was supposed to already be in operation, so these ones are just a stop-gap between now and whenever the re-cast actually happens (May '23 or later).

 

[Halifaxlad]

A free complimentary meal,

A TV built into the back of every seat,

A button to call for attention,

Probably more luggage space, how much luggage does a typical flyer carry ?

 

[Starmill]

Why would you offer complimentary food and drink on a low-cost service?