M5000 Speed Potential

[Edo_UK]

Does anybody know if the 50mph restriction on the m5000 is electronic, and if so, what speed can the m5000s safely reach solely by maxing out their motors?

@507 001

 

[507 001]

Yes it is electronic. I wouldn’t want to do much more than 50mph, suspect it would be somewhat terrifying. They will coast over 50mph downhill, but obviously we avoid that.
I’m sure I’d heard that the K5000s were ordered for 100kph running, but were then downgraded to 80kph due to poor riding (I know, shock horror!). They do have a different traction package though.

 

[WatcherZero]

The K5000 were always 80kph units (There are a couple of 100kph Flexity Swift models but they all have much longer bodies of 37m+ rather than the standard 28.5m), the Stadtbahnwagen B's were built in both 80 and 100kph versions and in both six and eight bogie versions (three and four body sections) of those max speeds, generally on the 100kph versions the central body section is slightly longer and doesnt have a door whereas it does on the 80kph versions.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They ride roughly enough as it is, you'd have to be crazy to try and get anything more out of them!

 

[507 001]

They ride roughly enough as it is, you'd have to be crazy to try and get anything more out of them!

You want to try being up front on them, the ride is worse there. They are without a doubt the worst riding passenger rail vehicle that has ever operated in this country.

 

[py_megapixel]

You want to try being up front on them, the ride is worse there. They are without a doubt the worst riding passenger rail vehicle that has ever operated in this country.

For ride, I'd pick one over a Pacer any day. Possibly even a 323, too. (As a passenger, of course)

 

[507 001]

For ride, I'd pick one over a Pacer any day. Possibly even a 323, too. (As a passenger, of course)

I find that slightly bizarre having spent the last 8 years being thrown about by them every day. They make a Pacer look like a Rolls Royce.

You feel every little issue with the track, they don't insulate you from anything. They also have a nasty habit of transmitting vibrations up into the body when negotiating curves.

 

[Mothball]

I find that slightly bizarre having spent the last 8 years being thrown about by them every day. They make a Pacer look like a Rolls Royce.

You feel every little issue with the track, they don't insulate you from anything. They also have a nasty habit of transmitting vibrations up into the body when negotiating curves.

With the oldest ones over a decade old, have they suffered from any problems structurally? The rough riding must batter the body and underframe daily. I know at that age, and often earlier there rubber-tyred counterparts tend to be suffering structurally.

 

[507 001]

With the oldest ones over a decade old, have they suffered from any problems structurally? The rough riding must batter the body and underframe daily. I know at that age, and often earlier there rubber-tyred counterparts tend to be suffering structurally.

Nothing major to note, they're much stronger than a bus (which shows in the weight being around 40 tonnes compared to about 12 for a double decker) and have a design life of 30-35 years front line service. Mid-life overhauls are due in the next couple of years, so it'll be interesting to see if anything is found then.

 

[Edo_UK]

Some very interesting feedback here. I have found the M5000 to be quite loud at high speed, potentially due to their odd wheel profiling; and their bogies are generally distasteful. I would think the M5000 bogies are responsible for speed limits across certain sections of the tramway being reduced after its introduction, ironically making the older T68 fleet possess some advantages over the M5000. Though, as a passenger, I’ve never had much issue with its ride quality.

Another interesting thing to note: I rode a 31xx tram the other day and noticed it sounded different to the normal M5000s. Do they (or any tram batch in that series) have new or re-engineered traction motors that would explain the difference in sound?

 

[507 001]

Some very interesting feedback here. I have found the M5000 to be quite loud at high speed, potentially due to their odd wheel profiling; and their bogies are generally distasteful. I would think the M5000 bogies are responsible for speed limits across certain sections of the tramway being reduced after its introduction, ironically making the older T68 fleet possess some advantages over the M5000. Though, as a passenger, I’ve never had much issue with its ride quality.

Another interesting thing to note: I rode a 31xx tram the other day and noticed it sounded different to the normal M5000s. Do they (or any tram batch in that series) have new or re-engineered traction motors that would explain the difference in sound?

The noise at speed is indeed due to the wheel profile.

The bogies have conventional steel springs, which shouldn't be an issue, but in the case of the M5000 gives very poor body control, and as I said earlier, transmits every little vibration through the body work.

The M5000 isn't responsible for the speed reductions (apart from a long standing TSR between Dane Rd and Old Trafford inbound). The main reason for speed reductions is the conversion from block signalling (yay!) to Line of Sight operation (Boo!). If the original plan for the T68s had come to fruition and we still had a few with us now, they would be subject to the same speed restrictions the M5000s are (except for Dane Rd to Old Trafford).

The Newest ones (3121 onwards) have an upgraded traction package, but it doesn't sound particularly different to the old ones. Theres a slightly different pitch to the cooling fans on the traction cases, and the slight buzzing noise that they give off is slightly higher pitched too. Most of the differences in sound amongst the fleet are dependent on where they are in overhaul cycles. When I first started some 8 years ago, the 3001-3012 batch where awful and had very whiney gearboxes. As time has gone on the whiny gearboxes have 'moved' throughout the fleet and are now in the 306x series.

 

[Edo_UK]

Oh wow, whiny gearboxes? I didn’t notice. Is it all trams in the 306x series? Odd. I’ll have a look at some point this weekend. I may not be able to “unhear” it ever again.

Additionally, some portion of track in the Rochdale line seems to be reprofiled, due to the even more odd run sounds M5000s make on it. Do you have any idea which portion of that line is reprofiled?

 

[507 001]

Oh wow, whiny gearboxes? I didn’t notice. Is it all trams in the 306x series? Odd. I’ll have a look at some point this weekend. I may not be able to “unhear” it ever again.

Additionally, some portion of track in the Rochdale line seems to be reprofiled, due to the even more odd run sounds M5000s make on it. Do you have any idea which portion of that line is reprofiled?

No, it’s not all of them, and to be fair a lot of 307x and 308x are starting to be affected too. It’s not quite as simple as I made out in the earlier post, but you catch my drift.

Yes that’s Failsworth to Hollinwood.

 

[Edo_UK]

Ah, interesting. I've had a look down that line and blimey it's loud. I've attached a recording for those who haven't heard it. (the recording is protected by copyright and cannot be used for anything)

Speaking of sounds, at which speeds do the M5000s change phases? (if it's a three-phase motor I'd assume there were two specific speeds at which the motor switched)

Additionally, I have noticed this screeching sound that happens every so often at certain speeds. It is difficult to describe other than it is a screeching sound that lasts for only about a mile an hour and happens every so often. I have attached an image of the spectrogram of one of my recordings, and have highlighted what those frequencies seem to be. I have also attached a recording which is of the selected audio in the spectrogram. There are 5 screeches within; some distinct (namely the first) and some not.



What on earth is it? And at what speeds do they occur?

 

[AlastairFraser]

You want to try being up front on them, the ride is worse there. They are without a doubt the worst riding passenger rail vehicle that has ever operated in this country.

That's why they were bought, the high speed sections on the Oldham and Rochdale Line were devised to keep the local delinquents out of trouble by entertaining them on a reasonably- priced rollercoaster ride

 

[507 001]

Ah, interesting. I've had a look down that line and blimey it's loud. I've attached a recording for those who haven't heard it. (the recording is protected by copyright and cannot be used for anything)

Speaking of sounds, at which speeds do the M5000s change phases? (if it's a three-phase motor I'd assume there were two specific speeds at which the motor switched)

Additionally, I have noticed this screeching sound that happens every so often at certain speeds. It is difficult to describe other than it is a screeching sound that lasts for only about a mile an hour and happens every so often. I have attached an image of the spectrogram of one of my recordings, and have highlighted what those frequencies seem to be. I have also attached a recording which is of the selected audio in the spectrogram. There are 5 screeches within; some distinct (namely the first) and some not.

View attachment 104171

What on earth is it? And at what speeds do they occur?

I don’t believe that’s how an AC motor works, the three phases are used at the same time continuously. They don’t switch between phases.

I’m not sure what the screeching sound you describe is, I can’t quite hear what you’re referring to. The recording is of a bogie with whining gearboxes though, so if it’s what I think you’re referring to, it’s just worn gears.

 

[Edo_UK]

I don’t believe that’s how an AC motor works, the three phases are used at the same time continuously. They don’t switch between phases.

I’m not sure what the screeching sound you describe is, I can’t quite hear what you’re referring to. The recording is of a bogie with whining gearboxes though, so if it’s what I think you’re referring to, it’s just worn gears.

Ah. Pardon me, I’m not exactly a rail professional. I’m undertaking a project which requires me to have some level of understanding with certain areas of the M5000.

How do the M5000 gearboxes work? if applicable, do you know of how many gears there are and at what speeds they change at?

 

[507 001]

Ah. Pardon me, I’m not exactly a rail professional. I’m undertaking a project which requires me to have some level of understanding with certain areas of the M5000.

How do the M5000 gearboxes work? if applicable, do you know of how many gears there are and at what speeds they change at?

They just have the one gear, it’s technically a final drive, but they’re referred to as gearboxes.

 

[WatcherZero]

Is the screeching sound not low speed hunting? Sounds like a mostly straight piece of track with the wheels just being gently nudged back to true every couple of seconds.

 

[Edo_UK]

They just have the one gear, it’s technically a final drive, but they’re referred to as gearboxes.

What a fitting term.

Is the screeching sound not low speed hunting? Sounds like a mostly straight piece of track with the wheels just being gently nudged back to true every couple of seconds.

There is a period where the screeching sound persists.



It seems to persist at certain speeds, and I presume this bit of the audio is at 16-17mph. When the tram is constant at that speed, you hear it screech for a constant duration of time. This isn't the only speed that you can hear this constant screech at either. An mp3 of one of my source audios has been provided of 3026 at about 17mph, where you can hear it persist. (again, protected by copyright, cannot be used for any purpose other than to listen to it). Rather odd, isn't it?

As 507 suggests, it may well be worn gears.

 

[Jozhua]

That's why they were bought, the high speed sections on the Oldham and Rochdale Line were devised to keep the local delinquents out of trouble by entertaining them on a reasonably- priced rollercoaster ride

Failsworth to Hollinwood is my favourite bit of the whole network, in both directions! Absolute blast lol.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Failsworth to Hollinwood is my favourite bit of the whole network, in both directions! Absolute blast lol.

Agreed, but I would extend that to Victoria from the Failsworth end as the Monsall to Vic run is quite lively too.

 

[Jozhua]

Agreed, but I would extend that to Victoria from the Failsworth end as the Monsall to Vic run is quite lively too.

The 5mph crawl through S&C out of Victoria outweighs that I think!

 

[507 001]

The 5mph crawl through S&C out of Victoria outweighs that I think!

Hopefully won't be 5 for much longer. The work has been done, we're just waiting for the restrictions to be lifted.

 

[Edo_UK]

If you’re looking for a crawl, head over to Pomona where any point on the junction has been plagued with a 4mph TSR. It’s fun, and even more fun on trams with whiney gearboxes. You hear a hum very near 100hz, where the traction motor sounds eventually attenuate down to as speed tends to 0.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The 5mph crawl through S&C out of Victoria outweighs that I think!

Oh, yeah, Collyhurst tunnel is pretty fun though, not as good as the hilliest bit round Hollinwood, but still fun.

 

[TRAX]

They just have the one gear, it’s technically a final drive, but they’re referred to as gearboxes.

Also reducers.

 

[Jozhua]

If you’re looking for a crawl, head over to Pomona where any point on the junction has been plagued with a 4mph TSR. It’s fun, and even more fun on trams with whiney gearboxes. You hear a hum very near 100hz, where the traction motor sounds eventually attenuate down to as speed tends to 0.

Oh yeah I've been through Pomona a few times - seems closer to 1/2mph than 4mph. Very bad either way.

Metrolink has this unfortunate habit of copying the heavy infrastructure costs of heavy rail with big bridges, etc while taking on the compromises of light rail with tight curves and street running, etc. I'm not saying that the system should never have been built, but that we should really be aware to try and not end up with a "worst of both worlds" scenario when constructing future extensions. The Trafford line was certainly an improvement on something like Eccles, or even say Ashton, but it does not feel as fast as it should be to provide a truly competitive connection.

 

[507 001]

Oh yeah I've been through Pomona a few times - seems closer to 1/2mph than 4mph. Very bad either way.

Metrolink has this unfortunate habit of copying the heavy infrastructure costs of heavy rail with big bridges, etc while taking on the compromises of light rail with tight curves and street running, etc. I'm not saying that the system should never have been built, but that we should really be aware to try and not end up with a "worst of both worlds" scenario when constructing future extensions. The Trafford line was certainly an improvement on something like Eccles, or even say Ashton, but it does not feel as fast as it should be to provide a truly competitive connection.

4mph is actually quite difficult to maintain, so the speed will vary slightly. It’s ok though as all bar one of the 4mph restrictions has been lifted.

 

[Edo_UK]

I think my misunderstanding of the phases originated from the fact that at certain speeds (on trams with whiny gearboxes) you would hear the traction motors jump in pitch or reduce in pitch suddenly. You would also hear the tram “spaz” out at certain constant speeds due to this (i.e it would noticeably jump and go back down in pitch several times as the tram maintained that speed). What my question originally was was if you knew what speeds this effect happens at @507 001