Major disruption at Ayr Station due to dangerous old hotel (from August 2018)

[158756]

Surely the Council or even Network Rail as said if the council don't have the money cannot just pay for the demolition and clear up of debris and sell the land on. A brownfield site in a prime position surely would fly off the market and as long as they recoup the demolition costs I cannot see it being a problem..

If it were a prime location the hotel would never have got into this state. I don't know Ayr but in many places you would struggle to find anyone willing to pay the demolition costs - the subsequent development isn't going to be anywhere near as big or expensive as in a major city or a town within commuting distance of London. The current state of the retail sector limits the options as well.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

This whole sorry affair is a perfect microcosm for the current state of Britain

Sorry but you're going to have to justify such a sweeping statement. Remember that Scottish Law is different to English Law in many areas, property is one of them. So it's not reasonable to extrapolate a situation like this in Scotland to the rest of Britain.

 

[route:oxford]

This whole sorry affair is a perfect microcosm for the current state of Britain

More the state of what was Strathclyde.

Have a read about Alexander "Greek" Thomson's Egyptian Halls, opposite the Union Street Entrance of Glasgow Central.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Egyptian_Halls

Dereliction since at least the 1980s

 

[Bikeman78]

If the company is bust, there will be no money for damages.

The best outcome would be a joint bid from Network Rail and Ayr Council. Payment of 1p for the building and get it properly restored.

I suspect the actual outcome will be purchase for 1p and demolish.

Take a look at the roofline from 2015 on Google Street view

https://goo.gl/maps/QbEqkLiC3f62

Awful.

Looking at the historical Google street view, the scaffolding has been on the platform since 2014 and the Buddleia has been well established since 2016. Surely alarm bells should have been ringing before it reached the point of closing off the station.

 

[Elecman]

Looking at the historical Google street view, the scaffolding has been on the platform since 2014 and the Buddleia has been well established since 2016. Surely alarm bells should have been ringing before it reached the point of closing off the station.

Not a lot anyone can do if the owner is refusing to comply with Dangerous Building Notices as they are bankrupt

 

[GusB]

More the state of what was Strathclyde.

Would Strathclyde Regional Council have had anything to do with it? From what I remember, planning etc. was always a district council responsibility, before the creation of the unitary authorities.

 

[gsnedders]

Not a lot anyone can do if the owner is refusing to comply with Dangerous Building Notices as they are bankrupt

The council can enforce a Dangerous Building Notice by carrying out whatever work is needed to make the building safe and then seeking the costs through the courts.

Would Strathclyde Regional Council have had anything to do with it? From what I remember, planning etc. was always a district council responsibility, before the creation of the unitary authorities.

Planning was definitely a council responsibility, dunno about Dangerous Building Notices—I'd certainly assume they were district responsibilities.

If what's been said is true and the council simply don't have the money to carry out what works are required by the Dangerous Building Notice, then that goes back to the ongoing (over years) issue of council funding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The council can enforce a Dangerous Building Notice by carrying out whatever work is needed to make the building safe and then seeking the costs through the courts.

Though if the owner has no money you can sue all you like but you'll still get nowt.

 

[B&I]

No, it's really not.

It is though. The wonderful freewheeling private sector leaves what was once worthwhile to rot, to the point where it messes everyone's life up, and the cash-strapped remains of the public sector are left to clear the whole farrago up

 

[B&I]

Sorry but you're going to have to justify such a sweeping statement. Remember that Scottish Law is different to English Law in many areas, property is one of them. So it's not reasonable to extrapolate a situation like this in Scotland to the rest of Britain.

I can think of plenty if places in England, Wales and Northern Ireland where something similar has happened, if not perhaps involving a railway station. This country is falling to pieces

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can think of plenty if places in England, Wales and Northern Ireland where something similar has happened, if not perhaps involving a railway station.

Perhaps, but...

This country is falling to pieces

...is a bit of a conclusion to draw from that, particularly on the railway where that is very much not the general case - investment in new rolling stock, infrastructure and buildings abounds everywhere.

From a railway point of view the time it was like that was the 1990s, not now.

 

[robertclark125]

If I can get this thread back on track, no pun intended, do those who know the area well, and are up to date with the current situation able to say if there's a chance the entire station may have to be temporarily closed to deal with this matter?

 

[gsnedders]

Though if the owner has no money you can sue all you like but you'll still get nowt.

Indeed, especially given the cost of demolition/rectification is likely to make them bankrupt if they aren't already.

 

[380101]

If I can get this thread back on track, no pun intended, do those who know the area well, and are up to date with the current situation able to say if there's a chance the entire station may have to be temporarily closed to deal with this matter?

Yes. Planning is underway to move all ScotRail electric services away from Ayr station from midnight on Sunday to allow multi unit trains to run again. No firm decision has been made on where services will be starting from. Prestwick Town is the most likely place but there are issues with where units will be turned at as the closest place to turn is Falkland yard and it is not in very good condition track wise so may not be suitable. Also it is owned by DBcargo Uk and will incur costs if used.

The next most suitable place to turn units is Irvine. You can turn units at Barrassie but the station is not easily accessible for coaches so its a non starter for starting services there.

At the moment 4 x 380s will still be stabled at the shortened platforms at Ayr regardless of where services will be starting/terminating from Monday morning and staff will, for the short term, still book on for duty there.

Another development is that the specialist contractors carrying out the emergency works on the roof have now refused to go up due to it being so dangerous. This now means that in order to remove/stabilise the roof structure of the building will involve some fairly large cranes to enable them to access the roof areas above platform 3 where the most serious structural issues are.

 

[DelW]

Prestwick Town is the most likely place but there are issues with where units will be turned at as the closest place to turn is Falkland yard and it is not in very good condition track wise so may not be suitable. Also it is owned by DBcargo Uk and will incur costs if used.

The next most suitable place to turn units is Irvine. You can turn units at Barrassie but the station is not easily accessible for coaches so its a non starter for starting services there.

(Section deleted, misunderstood 380101's post)

How will this affect Stranraer services, is the problem just use of the station building and platforms at Ayr, or could the risk of collapse onto the tracks prevent through trains running as well?

 

[DarloRich]

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious, but why do units need to be turned? There are lots of dead-end termini where the driver changes ends and the unit reverses, is there something unusual about the stock on the Ayr line that makes this undesirable or impossible?

He means turned as in "turned back" rather than turned around - standard expression on the railway.

 

[DelW]

He means turned as in "turned back" rather than turned around - standard expression on the railway.

Thanks, my post now edited. I'd just realised that although Falkland Yard has a triangle, Irvine and Barassie don't. More coffee needed before my brain is working properly.

 

[DarloRich]

Surely the Council or even Network Rail as said if the council don't have the money cannot just pay for the demolition and clear up of debris and sell the land on. A brownfield site in a prime position surely would fly off the market and as long as they recoup the demolition costs I cannot see it being a problem..

Never been to Ayr I assume...............

If it were a prime location the hotel would never have got into this state. I don't know Ayr but in many places you would struggle to find anyone willing to pay the demolition costs - the subsequent development isn't going to be anywhere near as big or expensive as in a major city or a town within commuting distance of London. The current state of the retail sector limits the options as well.

Exactly - I suspect the owner over stretched then couldn't find finance to develop then ran out of money

Looking at the historical Google street view, the scaffolding has been on the platform since 2014 and the Buddleia has been well established since 2016. Surely alarm bells should have been ringing before it reached the point of closing off the station.

You can ring all the alarm bells you want and serve all the enforcement notices you want. If the owner is incommunicado or the owner has gone bust there isnt much you can do until such time as the property reaches a dangerous state that requires immediate intervention via statutory or regulatory powers. You can bill the administrators but you go in the queue like the rest of the creditors and will get, if you are lucky, pennies on the pound

( also worth noting this is Scotland where they do things to a different legal framework)

 

[380101]

(Section deleted, misunderstood 380101's post)

How will this affect Stranraer services, is the problem just use of the station building and platforms at Ayr, or could the risk of collapse onto the tracks prevent through trains running as well?

Platforms 3 and 4 are the through platforms and temporary buffers (pile of sleepers and stop board) have been placed approximately half way down the platforms which has effectively closed off the line Southbound. This means we have no access to Ayr Townhead carriage sidings or the line to Girvan/Stranraer. This closure of 3 and 4 is because the most dangerous part of the building is directly adjacent to platform 3 and if it were to collapse it would wipe out the overhead wires and block the track.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It is though. The wonderful freewheeling private sector leaves what was once worthwhile to rot, to the point where it messes everyone's life up, and the cash-strapped remains of the public sector are left to clear the whole farrago up

Probably one for another thread but it would not be difficult to come up with one or two examples of where public bodies have allowed 'worthwhile' buildings to rot as well.

 

[DelW]

Probably one for another thread but it would not be difficult to come up with one or two examples of where public bodies have allowed 'worthwhile' buildings to rot as well.

Private Eye's "Nooks and Corners" columns can supply plenty of examples in public and private ownership over many years .... not a new problem sadly.

 

[DarloRich]

Probably one for another thread but it would not be difficult to come up with one or two examples of where public bodies have allowed 'worthwhile' buildings to rot as well.

I would start with the Nooks and Corners column in Private Eye! ( now sadly bereft of Piloti )

Private Eye's "Nooks and Corners" columns can supply plenty of examples in public and private ownership over many years .... not a new problem sadly.

snap

 

[FQTV]

Never been to Ayr I assume...............





Exactly - I suspect the owner over stretched then couldn't find finance to develop then ran out of money



You can ring all the alarm bells you want and serve all the enforcement notices you want. If the owner is incommunicado or the owner has gone bust there isnt much you can do until such time as the property reaches a dangerous state that requires immediate intervention via statutory or regulatory powers. You can bill the administrators but you go in the queue like the rest of the creditors and will get, if you are lucky, pennies on the pound

( also worth noting this is Scotland where they do things to a different legal framework)

From what I recall of this particular case, it was an overseas (Malaysian?) buyer, who bought the property at below-book and promised a lot.

However, a lot of the promise (as seems to happen regularly) was predilicted on getting grants and subsidies which, for whatever reason, were not forthcoming. Those injections were to be used to catalyse further investments, perhaps a few ownership flips etc., etc.

Having paid very little for the property, through a company vehicle, the owners then effectively walked away with no liability other than a book loss.

I wouldn’t be at all surpised if Network Rail has now pressed the ‘nuclear’ button in an attempt to get the now-responsible parties to get their acts together and sort out the mess.

It may also be worth remembering that this was formerly a British Transport Hotel, and therefore in a past life it would have been the railway’s own responsibility to manage, had it not been sold-off. Now, it’s not under the railway’s control, but does compromise its operation.

I don’t know what the situation in Scotland is, but in England it’s very much the case that councils can issue a compulsory purchase order, have the valuation assessed by a tribunal, take ownership and manage property on an ongoing basis. It’s not a funding issue as the purchase and redevelopment costs come out of capital reserves, not annual budgets, and many local authorities sit on some very significant reserves.

They don’t do it, however, because it’s not something that they generally seem very inclined to do, and I don’t deny that legal costs etc., have to come out of the operating budget.

Overall, though, I suspect that this situation is quite symptomatic of the current political environment, as @B&I perhaps suggests.

 

[DelW]

Platforms 3 and 4 are the through platforms and temporary buffers (pile of sleepers and stop board) have been placed approximately half way down the platforms which has effectively closed off the line Southbound. This means we have no access to Ayr Townhead carriage sidings or the line to Girvan/Stranraer. This closure of 3 and 4 is because the most dangerous part of the building is directly adjacent to platform 3 and if it were to collapse it would wipe out the overhead wires and block the track.

Thanks, with the help of that and Google maps I think I've understood it better now.

Is the gable wall that's causing concern the one at the south end, by the road bridge? (There doesn't seem to be an equivalent at the other end). If so, it looks possible that the road over the bridge would need to be at least contra-flowed on one carriageway or even closed altogether, which I think would increase the urgency of the situation even more.

 

[fairliered]

Can Newton-on-Ayr handle 7 coach trains?

 

[380101]

Can Newton-on-Ayr handle 7 coach trains?

No. Max of 5 coaches on the platform. In normal service we stop there both ways with 6 and 7 cars and the 380 uses automatic selective door opening (ASDO) to lock off the rear 1 or 2 coaches. The issue with the current situation is we could not then start back from Newton on Ayr due to signalling and track layouts.

 

[fairliered]

My other major worry is the effect on the long term viability of the service to Stranraer if this drags on. Sadly, the building will need to be demolished, and soon.

 

[randyrippley]

Don't worry, it will only be a matter if time before the local scallys solve the problem by torching the place.

 

[Macwomble]

Don't worry, it will only be a matter if time before the local scallys solve the problem by torching the place.

Which will only make the situation worse in the short term. You only need to look at the Glasgow School of Art situation to get a very good comparison.

 

[DelW]

Which will only make the situation worse in the short term. You only need to look at the Glasgow School of Art situation to get a very good comparison.

Maybe the companies who will be undertaking the GSA rebuilding could use Ayr station hotel for practice