Man arrested at Liverpool Central over ticket row won't face prosecution

[WesternLancer]

Aside from the specifics of the case is this last line in the article new news?

Steve Rotheram, Metro Mayor of the Liverpool City Region and Labour candidate for May’s Mayoral elections, told the ECHO an announcement is due on the progress towards smart ticketing at Merseyrail stations.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Excuse my possible ignorance and overlooking something but as far as I can gather this gentleman was traveling without a ticket as although it was a through fair to a destination outside the merseyrail area, he only had his booking reference and had not printed a ticket, surely this is not valid and he is at fault for not printing his ticket from a ticket machine or requesting assistance at a booking office

 

[Bletchleyite]

Excuse my possible ignorance and overlooking something but as far as I can gather this gentleman was traveling without a ticket as although it was a through fair to a destination outside the merseyrail area, he only had his booking reference and had not printed a ticket, surely this is not valid and he is at fault for not printing his ticket from a ticket machine or requesting assistance at a booking office

He is, but it's ridiculous that Merseyrail don't accept e-tickets and they really do need to sort that out.

 

[Wolfie]

Merseyrail would be a bit daft to commence prosecution for the same offence the police said it wasn't in the public interest to prosecute. They'd be entitled to, but it'll just generate more bad PR.

In those circumstances the DPP would be well within their rights to take over and discontinue the action. Not to mention that Merseyrail would rightly be deluged in well deserved political sewage. Finally any defence worth it's salt would bring the police comments to the Court's notice if the case proceeded.....

The ticket was from Waterloo (Merseyside) to Reading. So it would have depended on whether they'd booked via London or via Banbury.

As for the passenger, it seems to me he failed the attitude test spectacularly.

The sooner that rail staff get over this "attitude test" bs the better.

Too bad for Merseyrail that this, by itself, isn't actually an offence

(As a company, they fail the attitude test daily)

Not to mention the competence test.... Mind you most TOCs do!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The sooner that rail staff get over this "attitude test" bs the better.

Depends how it's applied. I don't think one should have to grovel on one's knees to avoid being prosecuted, but I'm quite happy for the book to be thrown fully at people who are abusive* or worse actually assault staff.

* Notwithstanding that there are people in public facing jobs who don't know what "abuse" is and think someone being assertive or upset is being abusive when they are not - for instance "this situation is f* ridiculous" is not abuse, whereas "you're a f* idiot" is - and I've had a member of Luton Airport staff who claimed I was abusing them for saying "well, I'm afraid that isn't good enough" - fortunately heard by a manager who came over, told them not to be so ridiculous and dealt with the problem properly. One of the TOC Twitters got this spectacularly wrong fairly recently, I certainly had a giggle about it.

 

[Wolfie]

Depends how it's applied. I don't think one should have to grovel on one's knees to avoid being prosecuted, but I'm quite happy for the book to be thrown fully at people who are abusive* or worse actually assault staff.

* Notwithstanding that there are people in public facing jobs who don't know what "abuse" is and think someone being assertive or upset is being abusive when they are not - for instance "this situation is f* ridiculous" is not abuse, whereas "you're a f* idiot" is - and I've had a member of Luton Airport staff who claimed I was abusing them for saying "well, I'm afraid that isn't good enough" - fortunately heard by a manager who came over, told them not to be so ridiculous and dealt with the problem properly. One of the TOC Twitters got this spectacularly wrong fairly recently, I certainly had a giggle about it.

That's balanced

 

[thomalex]

whereas Merseyrail will prosecute anyone with a pulse for setting a foot over the line in their overzealous approach to enforcing their Byelaws.

What's overzealous about that?

 

[Watershed]

What's overzealous about that?

The man in question committed a Byelaw offence in boarding the train without a valid ticket, despite the ticket office being open. But it would be quite unreasonable to prosecute him for that offence given that he actually had paid for a ticket and would need to collect it at Lime Street before continuing his journey.

Of course Merseyrail don't see it that way and are more than happy to prosecute people despite the lack of public interest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The man in question committed a Byelaw offence in boarding the train without a valid ticket, despite the ticket office being open. But it would be quite unreasonable to prosecute him for that offence given that he actually had paid for a ticket and would need to collect it at Lime Street before continuing his journey.

Of course Merseyrail don't see it that way and are more than happy to prosecute people despite the lack of public interest.

Add to that the long-ingrained culture (certainly for as long as I remember) on Merseyrail of sending people to Lime St to sort such things out...

To be honest if they aren't going to sort e-tickets properly they'd be well served just putting a collection-only TVM inside the gateline at Central and pointing people to that rather than prosecuting them. There's one inside the gateline at MKC which I assume to be for that purpose though I've never used it (though it's a full card TVM so I'd imagine is occasionally used by chancers on seeing the gateline to be closed).

 

[sheff1]

To be honest if they aren't going to sort e-tickets properly they'd be well served just putting a collection-only TVM inside the gateline at Central and pointing people to that rather than prosecuting them. There's one inside the gateline at MKC which I assume to be for that purpose though I've never used it (though it's a full card TVM so I'd imagine is occasionally used by chancers on seeing the gateline to be closed).

There is a TVM inside the gateline at Manchester Piccadilly. Used to be one at Newcastle (not sure if it is still there).

 

[Towers]

Merseyrail don't provide TVMs that print bookings.
Merseyrail don't offer e-tickets.
Merseyrail then try to prosecute those that think Merseyside is in the 21st century with everyone else.

In that case I rescind my previous post and stand corrected!

So to clarify, third party apps will sell you a ToD from a Merseyrail station which has no facility to print said ticket, and Merseyrail will then attempt to prosecute you for not being in possession of the ticket that they refuse to provide you with? I agree that is ridiculous, why on earth have they not been compelled to provide the same ticketing standards as everyone else?

 

[island]

Merseyrail station which has no facility to print said ticket

They do have facilities to print the tickets, at the ticket office.

 

[Haywain]

Used to be one at Newcastle (not sure if it is still there).

There's at least two at Newcastle.

 

[Deafdoggie]

In that case I rescind my previous post and stand corrected!

So to clarify, third party apps will sell you a ToD from a Merseyrail station which has no facility to print said ticket, and Merseyrail will then attempt to prosecute you for not being in possession of the ticket that they refuse to provide you with? I agree that is ridiculous, why on earth have they not been compelled to provide the same ticketing standards as everyone else?

They will print them at the ticket office, which all bar 2 or 3 Merseyrail stations have. But not the TVM (even at those 2 or 3 stations) Regardless of if there is a queue at the booking office or if the booking office has a handwritten sign saying "back in 5 minutes" or is just closed when it shouldn't be.

 

[Towers]

They will print them at the ticket office, which all bar 2 or 3 Merseyrail stations have. But not the TVM (even at those 2 or 3 stations) Regardless of if there is a queue at the booking office or if the booking office has a handwritten sign saying "back in 5 minutes" or is just closed when it shouldn't be.

Ah… Well in that case!

So that brings “I didn’t have time” back into play, then.

Sadly, “I’ve paid but just don’t have the actual ticket” seems to be a fairly common issue for those checking tickets these days. It would seem that some passengers cannot see why it’s an issue, and others just refuse to be told. Either way, if you’ve made a conscious decision to purchase a product which requires you to collect a ticket prior to travelling, there is surely a perfectly reasonable expectation that you will do so. There may well be various times when the railway itself creates a barrier to that, in which case that ought to be a clear pass on any ‘punishment’, but a wilful decision not to collect one’s required travel documents does not deserve sympathy IMHO. The potential for fraud or abuse of the system is far too high.

 

[Skie]

Central and Moorfields (main exit) both have Excess fares windows. They arent used. That's the criminal bit of this, someone wanted them when the MtoGo shops were built but for whatever reason the policy is to just fine/arrest people now rather than use the tried and tested method of making them actually prove they do have a ToD ticket or get them to buy an actual ticket.

It really is bad, and I can't imagine the cost of running a heavy handed PF scheme is actually worth it when you can use the Excess fares window to collect revenue and just deal with the scrotes who really are trying to avoid paying. IE the ones who won't even bother getting off at a barriered station.

 

[Haywain]

for whatever reason the policy is to just fine/arrest people now rather than use the tried and tested method of making them actually prove they do have a ToD ticket or get them to buy an actual ticket.

Except that isn't true because we've seen multiple cases on these forums where people arriving at those stations with uncollected ToD or who have travelled from unstaffed stations are sent to the shop to get their tickets and only get reported after they have decided that it's too much trouble.

 

[reb0118]

Can you prosecute someone who is dead?

I believe that Oliver Cromwell was prosecuted and convicted after death.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except that isn't true because we've seen multiple cases on these forums where people arriving at those stations with uncollected ToD or who have travelled from unstaffed stations are sent to the shop to get their tickets and only get reported after they have decided that it's too much trouble.

They wouldn't of course be able to do this if they were required to collect them inside the gateline.

 

[Skie]

Except that isn't true because we've seen multiple cases on these forums where people arriving at those stations with uncollected ToD or who have travelled from unstaffed stations are sent to the shop to get their tickets and only get reported after they have decided that it's too much trouble.

It's only right that if they do give someone enough rope to hang themselves they then hit them with the book, but the consistent inconsistency doesnt help anyone. Especially when they have a ready made alternative that is much friendlier to their honest customers who might otherwise be having a bad day and fail the attitude test.

I've had bother when the queue at my ticket office was so long we were told to buy at the destination, but luckily 3 other people from the same queue all turning up with the same story convinced the heavies to "let us off" and I was able to print my tickets in the shop.

 

[Ianigsy]

They will print them at the ticket office, which all bar 2 or 3 Merseyrail stations have. But not the TVM (even at those 2 or 3 stations) Regardless of if there is a queue at the booking office or if the booking office has a handwritten sign saying "back in 5 minutes" or is just closed when it shouldn't be.

Merseyrail do have problems keeping their ticket offices staffed, it seems. I visit family in Birkenhead about once every month-six weeks and the ticket window at their local station is regularly unstaffed. Indeed, one Saturday afternoon the ticket office at Conway Park had a “please pay at your destination” sign up, with a member of staff opening the barriers for ticketless passengers!

 

[Wallsendmag]

It's unclear here. If you just get arrested and de-arrested on the street, and not processed in custody, there is a low likelihood of those details ending up on the PNC. In this case, he doesn't seem to have gone to custody but they have still processed correspondence relating to his arrest.

Because everyone does their head in about "can I visit Disneyland Florida one day", the ESTA form has this exact wording:

1. Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

In this case the answer is no anyway, so visa free entry is unlikely to be an issue.

The answer to your question will always be no, simply because Disneyland isn't in Florida , Disney World is.

 

[Krokodil]

Quite, all kinds of ridiculous bylaws and rules that you wouldn't find on other TOCs,

Really? Other than the alcohol ban (common on urban metro systems), what byelaws does Merseyrail have that differ from the National Rail ones?

and really quite desperate enforcement of said bylaws and rules too. Articles in local news about Merseyrail's customers getting swatted with all kinds of ridiculous penalties and charges seem to be an almost weekly occurrence these days.

Putting shoes on the seats is a filthy habit and well deserving of a £60 charge.

The sooner that rail staff get over this "attitude test" bs the better.

Would you prefer that everyone gets dealt with by the book? No more discretion when a passenger is cooperative, no more "you're not supposed to do that, don't do it again", no more "I was running late, can I buy a ticket from you?", instead you'd rather that everyone gets whacked with an Anytime Single/PF/TIR?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? Other than the alcohol ban (common on urban metro systems), what byelaws does Merseyrail have that differ from the National Rail ones?

They certainly seem to have an issue with people who have consumed alcohol despite them getting home on the train likely being the safest option of the options available. To the point that they've refused travel to people who have had no alcohol at all but have balance/speech slurring issues (something for which I hope they were taken to Court; if there is any doubt whether someone has a disability it has to be assumed that they do).

Despite this, I still witnessed an almost* identical repeat of the James St incident at Town Green just after Christmas.

* The main difference being that due to it being a 777 the driver was able to see in the CCTV that someone had stumbled against the train (which happened after dispatch) and stopped it until they had moved away, so nobody was hurt, fortunately.

 

[AlterEgo]

Putting shoes on the seats is a filthy habit and well deserving of a £60 charge.

Can't think of many places this would be a criminal offence. Most people would think the country was mad if there were laws saying you could be taken to court for the crime of putting your feet on a seat in a cafe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't think of many places this would be a criminal offence. Most people would think the country was mad if there were laws saying you could be taken to court for the crime of putting your feet on a seat in a cafe.

To be fair Merseyrail themselves said they'd rather not have to use Byelaws but would rather have scope to charge a simple cleaning fee (as you'd be charged if you vomited in a taxi, for example) but the only enforcement method open to them is to threaten prosecution and offer a settlement. So far as I understand it, settlements are offered in all such cases.

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair Merseyrail themselves said they'd rather not have to use Byelaws but would rather have scope to charge a simple cleaning fee (as you'd be charged if you vomited in a taxi, for example) but the only enforcement method open to them is to threaten prosecution and offer a settlement. So far as I understand it, settlements are offered in all such cases.

There's nothing stopping them behaving like any other business in the civil realm and trying to charge a customer a cleaning fee. (Most businesses wouldn't even do this anyway)

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing stopping them behaving like any other business in the civil realm and trying to charge a customer a cleaning fee. (Most businesses wouldn't even do this anyway)

I suppose they could do that and sue for it if unpaid.

But I think it's fair to say feet on seats is a bigger problem on public transport than elsewhere. Buses tend to avoid it by not having any rear facing seats (people don't like them anyway), and to be fair the 777s are mostly airline seating anyway, so it'll be less of an issue.

 

[Krokodil]

Can't think of many places this would be a criminal offence. Most people would think the country was mad if there were laws saying you could be taken to court for the crime of putting your feet on a seat in a cafe.

I can't say that I've ever seen someone's shoes on the seats in a cafe or anywhere else. It seems to be a problem reserved to public transport.

If a cafe did want to pursue someone for criminal damage because they've got some mud on the seats, they technically could do so as case law has a very broad definition of criminal damage, it doesn't have to be permanent and doesn't even have to be visible. Police resources are pretty stretched so it's unlikely that they'd be any help (you can't even get them to turn out for burglaries in many parts of the country) but they could if they wanted to.

I'm still wondering what extra byelaws Merseyrail apparently has. The MR version of byelaw 4 is more absolute than the discretion given elsewhere but otherwise there are no meaningful changes. Otherwise they just enforce the same set of byelaws that other TOCs have available to them but cannot be bothered to deal with ASB.

 

[island]

I believe Merseyrail enforce feet on seats etc. under a part of byelaw 6 no person shall soil any part of the railway, no person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent, or offensive manner on the railway, no person shall damage any part of the railway etc