Manchester - Blackpool & Scotland TPEx Changes

[Nym]

It appears the 17:00 Man Airport to Glasgow being routed via Bolton is only a short term measure, up to February. From then onwards the service will be re-routed via Chat Moss and a brand new service will start, this being 17:13 Manchester Oxford Road to Windermere via Bolton if I read it correctly. Seems a bit odd to start it at Oxford Road, will it go off platform 5?

It could also go from Pt.3 for a cross platform interchange, although I'm not sure how longer train it will be...

 

[edwin_m]

Probably there's no capacity to run an extra train through Piccadilly at that time until Northern Hub is completed. Having used the 1700 several times from Piccadilly it seems to pick up most of its passengers at Oxford Road. It is 1715 from Piccadilly so the new train will be ahead of it, possibly in an attempt to scoop up any passengers for Preston.

 

[Thomas6187]

Once passenger catch on the idea that there is a extra Bolton train from Oxford Road, then passengers will attempt pile onto already busy 17:07 Piccadilly-Liverpool

 

[Nym]

Once passenger catch on the idea that there is a extra Bolton train from Oxford Road, then passengers will attempt pile onto already busy 17:07 Piccadilly-Liverpool

Yes indeedy; one wonders when the train will be in Oxford Road and if 14a/14b could be used instead of using Oxford Road...?

Although for what goes through there, that could be quite the performance risk on the 1711...

 

[Boysteve]

It appears the 17:00 Man Airport to Glasgow being routed via Bolton is only a short term measure, up to February. From then onwards the service will be re-routed via Chat Moss and a brand new service will start, this being 17:13 Manchester Oxford Road to Windermere via Bolton if I read it correctly. Seems a bit odd to start it at Oxford Road, will it go off platform 5?

Yes I have seen that on the timetable. My question's are is the 17:00 from the airport currently a 6 car train which will be split into two 3 car trains or will their actually be extra capacity out of Manchester?

 

[Whistler40145]

At what point will FTPE be applying vinyls to 350401?

 

[snail]

Yes I have seen that on the timetable. My question's are is the 17:00 from the airport currently a 6 car train which will be split into two 3 car trains or will their actually be extra capacity out of Manchester?

My guess is that the 1700 will be an 8 car 350, with a 3 car 185 running the new Bolton/Windermere service from Oxford Rd.

 

[northwichcat]

My guess is that the 1700 will be an 8 car 350, with a 3 car 185 running the new Bolton/Windermere service from Oxford Rd.

I thought the plan was to operate 8 car workings only on Saturdays and only after the May 2014 timetable change.
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At what point will FTPE be applying vinyls to 350401?

I imagine they'll wait until all the 350s are delivered and then do it as one job, rather than lots of little jobs over the next few months.
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Once passenger catch on the idea that there is a extra Bolton train from Oxford Road, then passengers will attempt pile onto already busy 17:07 Piccadilly-Liverpool

Yes and Northern will probably show that as a connecting service in their Bolton timetables, in the same way they show the busy Liverpool-Norwich services as connections for the 16:58/17:58 Stockport-Chester services. Although, MCRUA recommends using the earlier 16:38 Piccadilly-Alderley Edge and 17:38 Piccadilly-Crewe due to their being more space on those trains, less walking between platforms and those services having better punctuality.

 

[snail]

I thought the plan was to operate 8 car workings only on Saturdays and only after the May 2014 timetable change.

I did say it was only a guess. If it is a 4 car train it will be interesting to see how the loads split between Piccadilly and Oxford Road.

 

[WatcherZero]

Fridays and Sundays, not Saturdays I thought. Because people tend to go up to Scotland/Cumbria on a Friday and return on a Sunday. Aka Weekend breakers.

 

[hughesfowler]

Can not see the new service going from platform 5 as the Liverpool stopper goes from there. I would envisage it going from platform 1 as it can come in and wait there.

 

[northwichcat]

Fridays and Sundays, not Saturdays I thought. Because people tend to go up to Scotland/Cumbria on a Friday and return on a Sunday. Aka Weekend breakers.

So I'm guessing that means North TPE will continue to have a shorter train on a Friday compared to Monday-Thursdays, to allow for extra capacity on other routes.
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Can not see the new service going from platform 5 as the Liverpool stopper goes from there. I would envisage it going from platform 1 as it can come in and wait there.

Realtraintimes also suggests platform 1 with the 17:15 to Lime Street going from platform 5
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82730/2014/02/24
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y42665/2014/02/24

TPE do have a path for Airport-Oxford Road but as it's at 16:26 they do an ECS move to Oxford Road instead of in service, terminating and starting as a new service around 30 minutes later:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y82727/2014/02/18/advanced

 

[WatcherZero]

Probably also influenced by whether they can squeeze most maintenence into mon-thu to make the maximum fleet availability at weekends.

 

[Lankyline]

So let me see if i've got this right,

Electrification project is green lighted and first stage completion has been achieved

Relevant TOC's know what is happening and yet failed to plan for additional / new rolling stock.

TPE move services to Scotland via Wigan from Mcr Chorley Preston to take advantage of new electrification, everyone on the "old" route going to scotland now change at Preston. Capacity issues now become problem in 2014 on Chorley Bolton to Mcr

Northern have no rolling stock to cover capacity issues on Chorley line or it seems anywhere else ! ie Todmorden curve

Bottom line - Chorley Bolton suffer & TOC's can't plan their way out of a paper bag

Have these people not heard of forward planning its not as if Network rail kept them in the dark and suddenly said "by the way we've rebuilt the Tod' curve, are upgrading Bolton - B/Burn and we've electrified some lines if your interested"

You couldn't make this up !

 

[northwichcat]

Relevant TOC's know what is happening and yet failed to plan for additional / new rolling stock.

Northern's franchise officially ends in April 2014. They are in talks with DfT about an extension until 2016, which would include timetable and rolling stock changes. DfT have screwed up by not arranging a proper solution to allow Northern to take on additional rolling stock from December 2013 and more in the May 2014 and December 14 timetable changes.

TPE's franchise ends in 2015 currently and they have new EMUs being delivered to run Manchester Airport to Scotland via Wigan.

 

[WatcherZero]

Also there was a 6-8 month delay in the first bit of electrification caused when the Government came in and froze all infrastructure projects.

 

[tbtc]

So let me see if i've got this right,

Electrification project is green lighted and first stage completion has been achieved

Relevant TOC's know what is happening and yet failed to plan for additional / new rolling stock.

TPE move services to Scotland via Wigan from Mcr Chorley Preston to take advantage of new electrification, everyone on the "old" route going to scotland now change at Preston. Capacity issues now become problem in 2014 on Chorley Bolton to Mcr

Northern have no rolling stock to cover capacity issues on Chorley line or it seems anywhere else ! ie Todmorden curve

Bottom line - Chorley Bolton suffer & TOC's can't plan their way out of a paper bag

Have these people not heard of forward planning its not as if Network rail kept them in the dark and suddenly said "by the way we've rebuilt the Tod' curve, are upgrading Bolton - B/Burn and we've electrified some lines if your interested"

You couldn't make this up !

I think that's a bit unfair on the TOCs here.

They have only had a couple of years left on their contracts (which keeps getting extended and extended, like some form of torture in Hades), so were in no position to make long term commitments regarding aquiring new stock.

Virtually all new stock only arrives with various Government guarantees regarding its long term use - it certainly wasn't First who arranged for the 350/4s.

The problem is that the left hand (Dft, the ones arranging the stock) and the right hand (Network Rail, the ones arranging the infrastructure) haven't worked out a long term plan - not helped by the Government's "stop all Labour Party spending commitments" approach, as WatcherZero points out.

The spending on Bolton - Wigan may be seen as a way of appeasing those frustrated with the withdrawl of the bi-hourly Scottish services through Bolton, of course, but these things are generally announced as infrastructure projects without anyone at the DfT having worked out what stock will be used to run them).

 

[edwin_m]

To add to that, the delay in placing the order for the class 700 Thameslink stock has delayed release of the 319s.

 

[Lankyline]

Northern's franchise officially ends in April 2014. They are in talks with DfT about an extension until 2016, which would include timetable and rolling stock changes. DfT have screwed up by not arranging a proper solution to allow Northern to take on additional rolling stock from December 2013 and more in the May 2014 and December 14 timetable changes.

TPE's franchise ends in 2015 currently and they have new EMUs being delivered to run Manchester Airport to Scotland via Wigan.

So if the lack of rolling stock is being affected by both the DfT and the upcoming franchise end date for the TOC's then with only a year difference (approx) between Northern's & TPE's end dates, how come Northern have not seemingly exerted enough pressure on the DfT fto get stock, yet TPE have got stock, but both TOC's are affected in the same way.

So will TPE be offering Northern the diesel units that are being replaced i wonder ? not withstanding leasing / contract arrangements etc i doubt it

I would suggest that Northern seem to be affected more by the upcoming service changes, but does someone have it in for Northern ie DfT and want them to fail ? who knows

 

[gordonthemoron]

To add to that, the delay in placing the order for the class 700 Crossrail stock has delayed release of the 319s.

don't you mean Thameslink?

 

[Eagle]

So will TPE be offering Northern the diesel units that are being replaced i wonder ?

TPE aren't replacing any diesel units.

 

[swt_passenger]

So will TPE be offering Northern the diesel units that are being replaced i wonder ? not withstanding leasing / contract arrangements etc i doubt it...

The 350/4 have always been 'additional' for TPE. They don't replace anything. DfT have always been quoted in the past as saying the 185s will strengthen other TPE routes, whenever asked the explicit question.

 

[Geeves]

The 17:20 was the formerly the peak 180 run and generally pretty good these days for be 2x150. They get a hell of a lot of complaints if it runs as a 142 thats for sure!!

 

[Lankyline]

So are Northern stuffed then ? because they are going to take the brunt of the capacity issues on Mcr - Preston route when TPE transfer services to electric.

On various threads, ie Tod' Curve etc the issue is rolling stock supply and Northern is the TOC with the problem, this seems to only add to their issues, anyone think this is going to resolved to the satisfaction of the passengers anytime soon ?
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TPE aren't replacing any diesel units.

So whats happening to the units currently operating via Chorley will they be used for strengthening elsewhere ? or amended services on the line ?

 

[snail]

Fridays and Sundays, not Saturdays I thought. Because people tend to go up to Scotland/Cumbria on a Friday and return on a Sunday. Aka Weekend breakers.

Finding an additional unit to strengthening a weekend service I can understand but which service is going to lose a 350 set on the Friday compared to Mon-Thurs?

 

[Eagle]

So whats happening to the units currently operating via Chorley will they be used for strengthening elsewhere ? or amended services on the line ?

Initially used for general strengthening, and then they'll mainly move to the North Transpennine route in May when TPE introduce a fifth train an hour between Manchester and Leeds (the new train will be Liverpool to Newcastle via Victoria; the existing Airport to Newcastle is cut back to York).

 

[swt_passenger]

So whats happening to the units currently operating via Chorley will they be used for strengthening elsewhere ? or amended services on the line ?

Strengthening elsewhere on TPE, and running the revised Liverpool-Newcastle service. It's been discussed on and off for months...

 

[edwin_m]

don't you mean Thameslink?

Yes sorry folks. Another long day...

 

[WatcherZero]

Finding an additional unit to strengthening a weekend service I can understand but which service is going to lose a 350 set on the Friday compared to Mon-Thurs?

I believe they were talking about the friday morning high peak service being formed of 2x185's rather than a 350. On a Sunday more 185's available will allow more services to be strengthened including allowing 2x350 formations.

Not sure im remembering right but wasnt one of the quieter Scotland diagrams during the week covered by lone 185's as even when fully delivered there wasnt enough 350's (allowing for maintence) to cover every single diagram?

 

[Darren R]

FTPE have got the extra rolling stock because they need it to run the extra services. Northern have not got the extra rolling stock they need even though they too are going to be running extra services. Is there any particular reason for this?