Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Bullfield WEst]

Bedford is MK42 ...

... and Buxton is a SK (Stockport) postcode. The L66 and others that changed to C66 etc in around 1998. I struggled with them when delivering in the area in 1999.

 

[randyrippley]

Much of Cumbria has an LA (Lancaster) postcode. A hangover from Lancashire-over-the-Sands?
More confusing in Ingleton in North Yorkshire, addresses there are properly
XXX Street, Carnforth, LA***** without even a mention of Ingleton in the address.
You can imagine what the locals think of that

 

[fflint]

To try to get back to the original thread and away from discussions about postcodes

What do those, who we followed with interest during their superb progress reports when the electrification between Liverpool, Manchester and Wigan was going on, make of how the system / trains are operating now that they have "bedded in".
Is there anything that could have been done differently and why?

My thanks again to all those who went out in all weathers to keep us informed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What do those, who we followed with interest during their superb progress reports when the electrification between Liverpool, Manchester and Wigan was going on, make of how the system / trains are operating now that they have "bedded in".
Is there anything that could have been done differently and why?
My thanks again to all those who went out in all weathers to keep us informed.

Well we're still waiting for an electric timetable to match the trains.
It's time for some speeding up and optimisation of the diagrams.
The Liverpool-Preston definitely needs retiming, to avoid standing at Euxton Jn and then having an impossibly short turnround in Preston.
I personally think the 319s are doing well, especially because they have double the capacity of their predecessors and are quick-entry/exit.

Things are still dormant at Huyton after the 3-tracking, despite the work site still being in situ and occupied.
One would hope the 4-tracking would be finished at the same time as the Ordsall Chord - if so, they will need to restart pretty soon.

I think the alterations at Allerton depot are complete now.
We have the odd situation that the 156s maintained there now only have the CLC route to reach their new areas of operation (or a lot of ECS working).
In fact, Northern's stock/depot policy under Arriva is still to be announced.
I wonder where the new EMUs will go, and if/when they will replace 319s?

Lime St and its approach is due to be extensively remodelled, which is bound to be disruptive.
Still no clear idea when that will start.
Then there's the persistent 60mph PSR at Astley. Why?
And the Port Salford connection to go in.

 

[notlob.divad]

I won't claim to have been a person monitoring the progress, but as a user I would say:

The trains are clearly faster than the current timetable, the express Liverpool - Preston spends a long time sat at each station and an awful long time sat in the tunnels outside Lime Street.

It would be good if now that we have quieter electric trains, we could also have a later train out of Lime Street so that trips to concerts, the theatre, the pub, etc could be done by train without worrying about getting home.

I think still a work in progress, once they finish the four tracking and sort out the Lime Street approach we will be in a much better position to see the overall benefit of the work. (Also the electrification to Blackpool, so they can re-introduce through running trains).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

To try to get back to the original thread and away from discussions about postcodes

Thank you - if you had not done it -I was about to.

Also the electrification to Blackpool, so they can re-introduce through running trains.

Agreed - speed up the timetable now - and agree that finishing off to Blackpool would be nice.

 

[edwin_m]

I doubt there will be any major change to the timetable until the first tranche of the new franchise changes come in.

 

[urbophile]

Did somebody comment upthread about the pathetic train service to Newton le Willows? Two trains an hour from Lime Street, but slow and fast within about ten minutes of each other in both directions. Not much use for attracting commuters.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Did somebody comment upthread about the pathetic train service to Newton le Willows (NLW)? Two trains an hour from Lime Street, but slow and fast within about ten minutes of each other in both directions. Not much use for attracting commuters.

NLW should do well out of the franchise changes.
TPE are supposed to be stopping one of their Victoria services there, and there are the new Northern services via the Calder Valley (one from Liverpool, one from Chester).
But the Airport semi-fast is going, with the Victoria stopper diverted to the Airport instead.
The ATW service to Piccadilly continues.

 

[notlob.divad]

Did somebody comment upthread about the pathetic train service to Newton le Willows? Two trains an hour from Lime Street, but slow and fast within about ten minutes of each other in both directions. Not much use for attracting commuters.

The stopping service to Lime Street is 6 minutes after the express.
Coming back the stopper leaves Lime Street 4 minutes after the express.

The trains to Manchester are arguably as daft. You have two fast none stop trains (from Liverpool and from N Wales) within 7 minutes. The stopper to Victoria then comes through 20 minutes later. So in the space of 30 minutes you get 3 trains to Manchester and then nothing in the next half hour. Returning, you get all 3 within 12 minutes!.

 

[LDECRexile]

Has anyone any idea, ranging from vague impressions to hard figures, whether passenger numbers have gone up?

Has there been a Sparks Effect yet?

I'll try to get down to Allerton and photograph the wires on the headshunt soon, but I've got a lot of family stuff on at the moment.

 

[driver_m]

Has anyone any idea, ranging from vague impressions to hard figures, whether passenger numbers have gone up?

Has there been a Sparks Effect yet?

I'll try to get down to Allerton and photograph the wires on the headshunt soon, but I've got a lot of family stuff on at the moment.

There were figures recently released for station use but because there was a blockade on the line for a total shutdown the figures aren't showing a true picture. Figures up on chat moss stations but down on the St Helens Central line. Apparently though Northern had said they saw an increase by something like 20% since the 319s came in. (can't remember where I saw it though sorry)

 

[LDECRexile]

There were figures recently released for station use but because there was a blockade on the line for a total shutdown the figures aren't showing a true picture. Figures up on chat moss stations but down on the St Helens Central line. Apparently though Northern had said they saw an increase by something like 20% since the 319s came in. (can't remember where I saw it though sorry)

Interesting, thank you

 

[urbophile]

NLW should do well out of the franchise changes.
TPE are supposed to be stopping one of their Victoria services there, and there are the new Northern services via the Calder Valley (one from Liverpool, one from Chester).
But the Airport semi-fast is going, with the Victoria stopper diverted to the Airport instead.
The ATW service to Piccadilly continues.

From the N-le-W point of view that rather destroys the point of electrification, since it looks as if all but one of these trains will be diesel powered. In the short term at any rate.

 

[WatcherZero]

I believe northern said it was something like 20% increase on Liverpool-manchester and 13% on liverpool-wigan in the 12 months following 319 introduction.

 

[terryc]

<snip>

The stopping service to Lime Street is 6 minutes after the express.

<snip>
The express is quite often running late, and the stopping service arrives at NLW first.
It then gets looped at Huyton / Roby by the express, so that's an advantage of the new track layout, but both services then tend to arrive at Lime street behind schedule.

 

[fflint]

Thanks to all who have replied to my query. Have all the the 319s arrived now and are any electrical/mechanical problems they were having been sorted?

 

[LDECRexile]

I managed to get to Allerton Depot today.

Photos here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157648494725811

Dave

 

[Greybeard33]

NLW should do well out of the franchise changes.
TPE are supposed to be stopping one of their Victoria services there, and there are the new Northern services via the Calder Valley (one from Liverpool, one from Chester).
But the Airport semi-fast is going, with the Victoria stopper diverted to the Airport instead.
The ATW service to Piccadilly continues.

From the N-le-W point of view that rather destroys the point of electrification, since it looks as if all but one of these trains will be diesel powered. In the short term at any rate.

The Northern Franchise agreement TSR says that Northern is only required to provide 1tph at Newton-le-Willows. So it looks as though the DMUs from Liverpool and Chester will go through non-stop.

TPE will be stopping both its Liverpool services though. And TPE will be ordering bi-modes to replace the 185s, so these will use the wires.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks to all who have replied to my query. Have all the the 319s arrived now and are any electrical/mechanical problems they were having been sorted?

Still some problems with the 319s today (25 Feb.)
12:16 Lime St - Airport cancelled (announced as due to an earlier train fault).
12:20 Lime St. - Man. Vic was a Class 156.

 

[deltic08]

Interesting, thank you

The figure I saw before Xmas attributed to "Sparks Effect" was 11%. If it is now 20% then this is all grist to the mill for further electrification.

 

[DJH1971]

Still some problems with the 319s today (25 Feb.)
12:16 Lime St - Airport cancelled (announced as due to an earlier train fault).
12:20 Lime St. - Man. Vic was a Class 156.

And also this morning.

The 06:02 MCV to LIV service was cancelled due to a train failure.

 

[mcnw35282]

Does anyone know what the stopping pattern at St Helens Junction will be once arriva take over? Will there still be a semi-fast to Liverpool Lime Street? (22 mins to travel into town from sin tellins is fantastic...hope arriva carry it forward...)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anyone know what the stopping pattern at St Helens Junction will be once arriva take over? Will there still be a semi-fast to Liverpool Lime Street? (22 mins to travel into town from sin tellins is fantastic...hope arriva carry it forward...)

No change until Dec 2017.
After that, Northern will have Warrington BQ and Airport stoppers from Liverpool via St Helens Jn.
But TPE will be stopping an hourly Victoria semi fast service there.
It might also be the same one which stops at Newton le Willows, so replicating the current Airport service but running to Leeds via Victoria.
The 4-tracking at Huyton should also be complete, so Wigan destination trains will use P4 at Roby/Huyton with more capacity for Chat Moss trains via P3.

Northern will also have a Liverpool-Calder Valley service, but I don't think it stops before Victoria.
The only Piccadilly/Airport service will be the stopper.
That's my reading of the service requirement tables anyway.

 

[Bevan Price]

Does anyone know what the stopping pattern at St Helens Junction will be once arriva take over? Will there still be a semi-fast to Liverpool Lime Street? (22 mins to travel into town from sin tellins is fantastic...hope arriva carry it forward...)

But seems slow to anyone who remembers when a Peak or Class 47 could do it in about 15 minutes. (And my personal fastest time was under 13 minutes.)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

But seems slow to anyone who remembers when a Peak or Class 47 could do it in about 15 minutes. (And my personal fastest time was under 13 minutes.)

Oh yes- 70s and 80s - Pennine Peak Perambulations - Liverpool -Scarborough and Liverpool - Newcastle. I remember very well.

 

[8A Rail]

But seems slow to anyone who remembers when a Peak or Class 47 could do it in about 15 minutes. (And my personal fastest time was under 13 minutes.)

Me too and you could include a Class 40 but not in 13 minutes though!

 

[AM9]

But seems slow to anyone who remembers when a Peak or Class 47 could do it in about 15 minutes. (And my personal fastest time was under 13 minutes.)

I've only ever seen Peaks pulling 9-11 coaches and i can't imagine them making those sort of times. How many did they pull on the L&Y lines?

 

[deltic08]

I've only ever seen Peaks pulling 9-11 coaches and i can't imagine them making those sort of times. How many did they pull on the L&Y lines?

For ten years before Sprinterisation, the loading of TP services was BSO, four TSOs and an FK or FO. Peaks were better at getting away from a stop or a slack than a class 47 despite being less powerful.

 

[8A Rail]

I've only ever seen Peaks pulling 9-11 coaches and i can't imagine them making those sort of times. How many did they pull on the L&Y lines?

You mean L&M line not L&Y - the latter is Lancashire & Yorkshire being different lines altogether.

For ten years before Sprinterisation, the loading of TP services was BSO, four TSOs and an FK or FO. Peaks were better at getting away from a stop or a slack than a class 47 despite being less powerful.

I think most of the trains consisted of seven coaches rather than six from my recollection.